Whisper in the Shadows
Welcome to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’, your gateway into the nerve-wracking work of undercover policing. The true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I’m Michael Bates, an ex-undercover police officer, and this was my reality for over two years. If your fascinated by the truth that lies beneath crime shows, if you hunger for the real-life stories that leap beyond the boundaries of fiction, ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ is here to satisfy your curiosity. From infiltrating drug syndicates to living a double life, every episode uncovers a thrilling true story that pitted me against the face of danger. Don’t miss out on the chance to step into my shoes and experience what it takes to walk the thin line between law and crime. Subscribe to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ and join me, as we delve into the gritty world of undercover policing.
Whisper in the Shadows
Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Conversation - Episode 1 - Tommy (Part 1)
When you cross paths with Tommy, an undercover cop with stories that sound like they're straight out of a thriller, you better buckle up. With me, Michael Bates, your guide through the murky waters of covert policing, we invite you on a gripping journey into Tommy's life—from his military beginnings in Australia to the adrenaline-fueled streets of North America. His transition into law enforcement wasn't your average tale; it was a relentless gauntlet that led him to a career where the line between officer and outlaw blurs. Our chat isn't just about the thrills, though; it's a profound look at the sacrifices and the tightrope walk of family life when home is just another place you're undercover.
Tommy's experiences might as well be ripped from a movie script, but the danger and intensity are very real. We confront the chilling reality of close calls in drug deals, from a modest exchange of weed to the heart-stopping purchase of eight kilos of meth. Hear about the operations that could flip from routine to life-threatening in a heartbeat, and the mind games played while wearing the villain's mask. Every anecdote shared here paints a vivid picture of the risks taken—and the lives saved—in the shadows where undercover officers like Tommy operate. This is an episode that doesn't just bring you to the edge of your seat; it invites you into a world where every second counts and every decision could be your last.
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Hello and welcome to my podcast Whispering the Shadows the true story of a real life undercover cop. I'm Michael Bates and I was a police officer for 15 years in one of the country's state police forces. I was also an undercover cop for over two years, and all the episodes of this podcast are my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop. Rather, I was Michael Bates, so, for disclosure, michael is not actually my real name, it was my COVID identity I used on most of my operations.
Speaker 1:Everyone has a notion of what undercover policing is all about, whether you think they are a narc, a COVID operative, a dog or an undercover cop. Most people seem to confuse plainclothes police with being undercover. There is a very big difference, though. Most plainclothes police don't wear a uniform, so that is obtrusive in public. Even covert is completely different, though. You become immersed in the world of your targets. When you are a police officer, part of your role is to investigate crimes. This means you try and find evidence to prove the person you have arrested has committed that crime. Now, this evidence can consist of physical, verbal, video and witnesses. When you are an undercover police officer, though, you are the evidence and you are the reason someone gets convicted of the crimes. That is both exciting and dangerous, so why don't we get on with the next episode?
Speaker 1:Welcome to Whisper in the Shadows podcast, the interview series. I'm Michael Bates and I was an undercover cop for over two years Now. You will have been listening to my stories of my time undercover. Well, I've decided it's time we heard from other undercover cops and let them tell this story. Today I'm chatting with Tommy, who is a current police officer and undercover cop based in another country's police force. Afternoon Tommy, how are you today? I'm good. Michael, how are you doing? Thanks for having me. I am good, too, and thank you for agreeing to join the podcast and also for agreeing to have a chat about your experiences, both police and undercover. Okay, now, before we go any further, I do need to make a disclaimer that Tommy is actually a covert identity that you've used, and obviously we won't be using your real name or anything that is able to identify you, as you are currently still working.
Speaker 2:Thank you, that's great. Still on the job, lucky you.
Speaker 1:So look, how about we start with? Can you give our listeners a brief overview of what it is you're doing, both with your policing and your undercover duties, and an idea of what part of the world you're doing it in? I will say, and I think I'm allowed to say, it's not in Australia, so we'll rule that out. But let's you know if you can give an idea without giving it away, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm about a 16 to 20 hour flight from Australia as the crew flies. So I mean, I'm in the North America region and I've been here for over 20 years. Really born and bred in Australia, I met my current wife where I was, you know, enjoying the Southeast Asia region and she was backpacking around. And 20 odd years later, three kids and four dogs I'm still over you. It sounds almost like a movie script. Yeah, pretty much is. Yeah, I could write a book about it.
Speaker 1:So how did you become a police officer, firstly, and then how did you get into doing undercover work?
Speaker 2:Well, it wasn't anything I planned when I was in the Australian Army, before I moved here and I came to the country I'm at, and I dabbled in a few different things. I was a helicopter pilot for a while. I worked in the jail, did a bunch of things, but it wasn't until I started looking for something a bit more stable for the family. I kind of applied for police and took that journey. And here I am, 17 years later.
Speaker 1:And when you applied for the police, is it the same sort of process there as it would have been joining the Army here? And you know there's a lot of obviously testing and a lot of psychometric testing and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was quite a lot. It was about 18 month process having some like the polygraph test, physical, medical and backgrounding. It was a pretty competitive process so I was very fortunate to get in when I did.
Speaker 1:And do you enjoy policing in general?
Speaker 2:I still love what I do. I mean I still have the same feelings from day one Just to where I am at now. I mean it doesn't feel like a job to me, it's more of a lifestyle. I'm very, been very, very lucky and fortunate with the things I've seen done. People have met. Yeah, I thoroughly enjoy what I do.
Speaker 1:That's very good actually, because there are some of us who got very cynical very quickly and you're still married. You know someone who's been divorced twice as being a police officer. You're probably in the minority, but that's a whole different conversation. How did you get into being an under-capital?
Speaker 2:It wasn't actually something I was even thinking of, never even crossed my mind. It wasn't until I did my recruit training and then after my field coach portion of it and after that I kind of just started just fell into a couple of friends who needed help with an arrest team for doing prostitution stings and I started helping out, doing the plainclothes side of things, the rest in these johns, and kind of just kind of seeing that kind of side of policing that I didn't even think of and kind of steamrolled with that and got off at a spot to go on like a it's kind of like a vice or a prostitution type undercover course.
Speaker 1:I can't imagine you in a small dress sitting on a corner and then ticing johns.
Speaker 2:Well, funny enough I mean I have was the cut off jean shorts and up and down the parking lot getting in that conversation, and yeah, it was an eye opener, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Just in regards to that, because a lot of people I know had sort of started to do that sort of thing, my journey was obviously a little bit different. I had someone offer me drugs and we did a sting that way. But that whole prostitution side of things, where they, they, they put tray, you know, I know, I know you're here in Australia you have to be very careful you can't go the full outlandish and because there's entrapment laws and things like that, is that, is that a common way people get into it where you're?
Speaker 2:from no, because now, now obviously the world has changed and even back then it wasn't illegal the act. What was illegal was the communication for the purpose of prostitution in the community, and usually those top of stings were targeting people not to put them in jail but actually to help for prostitutes, get kind of the help they needed and stop those people from praying on those girls.
Speaker 1:That was the main part of things, and so from there did you have to do it like was there a squad. So we have actual covert squads that you know are based within the police forces and they do it for the entire states and you have to do a course to get in there. Is that the sort of route you had to take, or was it more an organic type route?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was at the start it was like a two week course kind of, kind of like a mini version of the other cover course, but it's all centered around Prostitution, massage piles kind of empowers the rest and kind of like just getting uncomfortable as doing it. And back then they had like maybe four or five full time people that target other and they bring in general duty members to come and help out. One is that a train would do the prostitution, or the male, the female, john, and then the ones that weren't trained kind of did the arresting in the paperwork. So you're going to get that, build those building blocks of getting into it.
Speaker 1:Now I will get you to relay some some war stories, as we call it, but I guess one of the sort of things is so you started in that prostitution. You've been doing this for a number of years now, part time, if I'm correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I should be full time 12 years in total. In total it's just about my whole career rugby covert of some capacity and money.
Speaker 1:And is it, what other sorts of areas have you moved the investigations into?
Speaker 2:So I started off just that intro into the prostitution side of things and then I kind of graduated into the full undercover course where going into undercover drug buys, homicide files, buying guns, anti corruption type files, I mean, you know I've done it with a really on the whole gamut, I've been the whole full circle, fair enough.
Speaker 1:What do you think is a common myth that people have, or a common misconception, rather, that people have about being an undercover police officer?
Speaker 2:I think probably the thing in the movies where you see these guys go undercover and they're on the room, they're gone out, is the keys to truck off to go and buy drugs. It doesn't work that way. Usually you have such a big support and team cover, team behind that people don't see, that doesn't train the movies and whatnot, but you have. You have that safety net.
Speaker 1:I guess, without going into specifics, we had controllers so there was always a detective from the various squad that you were working the area in. That you know I saw mine on a daily basis type deal. They didn't come like you're talking about when we were doing. If we were doing buy bus they would come with us but they wouldn't come with us. You know, for every single buy is that slightly different in your case?
Speaker 2:Yeah, usually from hell with where I'm at, we, our whole team, is kind of. When I was in the full-time team, the team was also covered. Cut the trade-in, the cover as well as operators, surveillance. You kind of like have all the tools in the bag and you go out and you do it rug-wide. You have that people around you ready to act, just for the fact that so many times they've ever been robbed. You can always stay out and like you need that backup behind you as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, definitely. And I guess one of the biggest myths that we have here is, I think, when you tell people what you do and now that I'm out is, I say, oh, I guess you're able to take lots of drugs and no one cares, and things like that Do you get the same sort of questions from relatives or close friends who you have told you what you're doing?
Speaker 2:I think the difference is the people we target. We don't target like the down and out junkie that's on the street. That's not who we're targeting. We're targeting the people that are, who are preying on those people for their own financial greed. We kind of go after the people who probably don't even use Just solely their business is to sell drugs, make money and they're going to become rich. They don't.
Speaker 1:And they don't because they get caught. They get caught and I'm assuming the government takes most of it then they do yeah, and where I'm made now, they take everything. For you what's the most difficult part of working on the cabra or being an undercover cop?
Speaker 2:For me over the years. I think my appearance, you know, I as always, you know, heavily tattooed and I mean I had very long beard. I don't know about long beard, long hair. I mean my kids went to private school picking my kids up from school and they'd be like is that your dad?
Speaker 1:Like who's drug dealer can pick you up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I used to get pulled over by the police all the time and ticketed like nonstop.
Speaker 1:How did you deal with that? Because I had the same issues a couple of times when, when I was actually working doing a buy, I was pulled over by the police. But if you get pulled over in your own time in Australia it's acknowledged that you generally say, hey, I'm a cop, rightly or wrongly. If you're in that persona, even if you're just dropping your kids to school or what have you, do you say hey, you know, I'm in the job, or how do you go about that?
Speaker 2:I'm kind of 50-50. I think it depends where I'm at and which agencies I'm getting pulled over. But some doesn't matter if you're a cop or not, I'll give you tickets. So sometimes I will kind of hint at a little bit. Do they believe you? A lot of times, no, they don't. They come back and they, they ask for proof and they actually call the agency to find out that I am legit. Yeah, so yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1:So sorry you were saying when we were talking about the most thing you said your appearance and the fact you know how that affects everyday life. What are some of the other difficulties that you've found with being at UC?
Speaker 2:Disengaging. You know what do you mean by that. Like you know you're at work, you're on a file and you're acting a certain way and you know a lot of times you wear and look a step away. It kind of helped you to kind of emulate that person. And you know, getting home and then shedding that layer is always sometimes a little difficult, yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you have to work? Do you ever have to work back in general policing, whether it be uniform or plain clothes, and be that police officer again?
Speaker 2:Because the money I only did the UC work kind of as a need to basis kind of part here a little bit. So I can still where am I now? I can still, you know, put a uniform on. It's very rare but I can still do it and operate where I'm, the town that I'm in, yeah, but if I do kind of step into that UC role again, it's usually not where I'm living.
Speaker 1:Which is a good thing, I think, because if they try to get you to do something where you're living, that becomes dangerous. I guess what I'm thinking of is that disengagement or that disconnect between you've got this persona who is a criminal for all instances purposes, and then the next day you could be putting back on a uniform and being a police officer. Does that cause not issues? But is there a I'm just trying to think of the right word issues going to have to be the right word. Does that cause any issues in regards to you going from breaking the law technically to enforcing the law the next day?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. The one thing that's always helped me is how you dress, how you look, how you speak, how you act. Wear a uniform, clean shave and look presentable. It's easier to be that that role, but if then I can switch back, that's kind of where my skills to this. I can switch personal from, I'd say, a biker to a, you know, a business guy that's doing forwards to a cop. I can switch between each one quite relatively easy.
Speaker 1:How do the people at your station for one of a better word take that switch One of the things that a group that a lot of people found coming back from UC to police, to uniform policing that the older heads would think along the lines of you're just a washed up, drugie. You've been having two years, two and a half years, three years well, however long having fun taking drugs, doing stupid things. You don't understand what policing is about. You now don't have that thought process of being a police officer. Do you have any pushback I guess is the right word from the people you work with? Because you have this dual role?
Speaker 2:No, not at all, actually quite the opposite. Because you know, when I went back to general duties well, I think two years ago, I went back for two years standing, because a lot of them were younger and junior police officers. So they kind of had so many questions and they wanted to hear the stories. They went up to a good story. They wanted to hear, because a lot of them don't have any experience or exposure to it. I want to know. So I mean, I found the opposite.
Speaker 1:Even from senior police, so what we would call the station sergeants, the senior sergeants, the ones who were running the station, or the inspectors, or that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even them too, like a lot of times they just kind of left me alone and they kind of, you know, if you had any questions regarding drug investigations or drug work, okay, go see this guy. They kind of utilize that as a massive skill to them.
Speaker 1:That's really good. It would be nice if and to some extent from what I've heard that police forces are doing that here in Australia too, especially the one that I came from. But still there is still that dinosaur perception, I guess from where the police force I came from. What's something surprising that you learned about yourself working undercover that I can kind of think pretty quickly.
Speaker 2:What do you mean by that? I mean, like something happens, I can react, and I'm usually like a couple steps ahead. I can kind of think of myself very fast. So you could strategize things yeah and I think it's quite more luck than anything. I seem to be very lucky.
Speaker 1:Well, that plays a very big part in it. Yes, you do have to be lucky as well. I think you also have to be a little bit. The glass is always half full as well.
Speaker 2:I do believe you kind of create your own luck. What do you mean by that? For me, I have this thing where I work really hard, like I mean, knowledge is power. I'll start getting into something that has nothing to do with my job, but kind of like one of those things I couldn't know, like I mean, and then I can kind of fall back on that.
Speaker 1:There was someone once told me that for a lie to be believable, there has to be a small amount of truth in it. I guess what you're talking about is, if you're going to pretend to be someone you're not, you need to have outside interests and understand things that you can weave into that. That don't reflect back on you. I understand.
Speaker 2:Like I mean it's easy to talk about something you know. I mean, and if I talked about frauds of finance I'd look like an idiot. I absolutely had no idea and I would even try. But I mean I can talk about things that I know. I mean working in a jail, I've worked in jail, I know how it works, so I can talk about that. And I mean I could, even if I don't, even if I'm bullshitting, I can make them believe it as well. And then growing up, my mom always said oh, you never. You know you lie too much. No one's there, you never get to make your life out of lie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a little bit, A little ditch. You know I'll come back to something we just said earlier, but just along that path of when you were young, did you ever do any acting or any anything like drama? I think they called it at high school or that sort of thing. Were you ever interested in anything like that?
Speaker 2:No, not at all, nothing. No, I was terrible at school. I think I left at year 11. Did you do any sports? I did sports and did a lot of team sports and that's something I really you know football and cricket and whatnot.
Speaker 1:And so this, I guess this ability to be able to become someone else or this, and the ability to be able to strategize I would assume the ability to be able to strategize would have come from your time in the military.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. Me and Ben are pretty planning, but I mean, even I still do it. Now. If I go into a town or an area that I'm not aware of and then I'm going to be operating, I'll drive through and I'll see what everyone else is wearing, like kind of like the people that I'll be targeting. What kind of clothing are they wearing, what do they look like, what's on their seat, that kind of thing. So I kind of prepare myself. I don't just wing it. I kind of have this thing in my head that, kayla, this is what I'm going to be, this is my personal offer for this file, and am I going to be an Australian tourist or am I going to be whatever?
Speaker 1:Everyone loves Australians.
Speaker 2:It's a very fair advantage.
Speaker 1:That would also be limiting, though, I guess as well, because you would eventually become known as the Australian undercover cop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you would think I mean I've been in 2000 drug and drug buys.
Speaker 1:Are we saying then, that criminals are basically stupid?
Speaker 2:Yeah well, they haven't figured that yet One of us is on stupid and I'm not sure which one is Fair enough.
Speaker 1:Getting back to that, I guess something surprising you learned about yourself. What surprised you the most about undercover work when you first started? For what was the biggest lesson or the biggest learning?
Speaker 2:People. I know people always think that you're going to be the A type personality, the loudest person in the room. That's not the case. I'm definitely not A type. I'm very. I figure I drew people I don't know, very in the corner gray man but I'm also watching and figuring things out in my head. But I think, yeah, you don't always have to be the loudest person.
Speaker 1:When you have that first meet or that first interaction, you know, is there a nervousness, do you have anxiety or anything like that?
Speaker 2:I mean I think a little bit Everyone. You mean you'd be crazy to say if you didn't. You always have this fear of the unknown. What's this person? What's they gonna ask? But they're gonna maybe wanna try the drugs first or they're gonna try and rob me. I mean you've got these things running through your head but I think once you kind of take that first step in the car or the first introduction, he's probably he or her probably just as nervous as you are meeting a person for the first time doing it and selling your drugs or selling it whatever, because they don't know if you're in undercover cop or not. Yeah, and a lot of times they're wherever they get ripped off or stabbed or shot as well.
Speaker 1:Do you have any rituals you go through before you go for a bite? I mean, as lame as it sounds, before I got out to do something I would take three deep breaths.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me, I kind of like cleanse myself where I'm wearing what's my pockets. I mean, have I got my personal self in my pocket as well? I mean everything from watch to rings something, knowing the car that I'm getting into, kind of like where the door handles are. Okay, these are little things that I'm thinking about. Okay, what is I kind of run through those quite a bit.
Speaker 1:I'll get you to tell some war stories and sort of talk us through some of the maybe some of the mundane, and then the more hairier and more visor or jobs you've done. Well, I just want to go back to you were talking about that persona that you have and then you get home and you take those clothes off and you become you again and I don't want to get too personal, but how has that impacted your relationship? Obviously, three kids, a wife still married after, I think, 20 years, 20 odd years, you said. Your wife must be very understanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she is totally. I mean she doesn't ask a lot of questions because she doesn't want the answers. I mean she likes hearing the cool stories but and I'll tell her what happened at work and then she'll relate. We'll go to people that were close friends and then she'll tell the story for me, because I tell them my daughter she's 13 and she never knew her other cop until last year.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so she for all these years. And then I went back to general patrol and she's somewhere uniform and she's like oh, you're a cop, yeah. And she, that's what he said. What was it? There was. Oh, I thought you were a firefighter, but it's not like that.
Speaker 1:Fair enough. I was going to say that must have been fun when they had take your father to school days and things like. Yeah, I was never talking about my father's career.
Speaker 2:I was never invited to those.
Speaker 1:Because you were the drug dealer. Yeah, all right, look, let's get on to, I guess, some stories about what you've done. I guess, similarly, you've had to listen to some of the episodes I've done in relation to this. So some of the things that you've done that you think people listening might be interested in, you know, just telling those stories that you obviously hate, telling that your wife does loves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just kind of a breeze of everything you know. I've first just ending from, like you know, point one of a gram of you know, cocaine, fentanyl, to all the way up to eight kilos.
Speaker 1:How does that work and how long the eight kilos talking to buy? How long does it take to plan that? How long does it take to get to an eight kilo buy and how does that work?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, this is an anomaly for the UC world, Like this file that was a part of a homicide I think it was a double homicide file related to a group that eats tacos and lights corona, Okay that kind of the stuff involved in those. And then we had an operator the one operator come in and try and purchase drugs in this group and that happened to be me and I kind of started off small and for him, you know, the file just got bigger and bigger and they utilizing more. I think I did like 10 meets with this person and on the 10th meet he was able to sell me eight kilograms of meth. At the time and I hadn't even exchanged money or exchange money or anything until he got busted and took down and yeah, and then how does that work?
Speaker 1:The take any, if you can give, I guess, a little bit of insight into you know, you see it on the TV, where you know the undercover is bundled up and taken away and sat in the car and then complaining about the fact that, hey, I haven't done this or I haven't done that, or I need to do that, and, as I know, it's all for your safety, we have one undercover by with me where I was locked up. How does that work at something at that high, at that level, rather with that size drug?
Speaker 2:With that one. It was like our kind of SWAT team. That was kind of like a big, big big file. I mean they took that in down pretty hard. It kind of they took him down when I wasn't there, okay, just because of the fact that he was armed and there was a big consent for them. All other things behind the scenes I didn't know, I wasn't made aware of. I think there's a good thing or a bad thing you weren't aware of them.
Speaker 2:I mean I always liked to know, I mean I always assumed everyone's armed anyway. So I mean, to me it wouldn't have. It would have been same as if I had a known or not known.
Speaker 1:So you can see when you work about 95% of the time.
Speaker 2:Okay yeah, Just just the fact we're on that, then the the danger that we kind of face, and there's been a few instances where it was very fortunate that I wasn't at the time, but there's been times where I wish I had a been.
Speaker 1:It is and, yeah, the question that always comes up when you're a cop, or the kids always ask you or idiots always ask you have you ever shot someone? I'm not going to ask you if you've ever shot someone, but you have been in a situation where, having your firearm with you working undercover, you've technically had to use it to make sure that the threat of you using it was seen as real.
Speaker 2:There's probably about three times where I probably would have used it if I had it that I.
Speaker 1:Can you elaborate on any of those?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the first one was actually weird because when I, when I was doing my undercover training, my first drug by was I just bought like a dime bag or weed or whatever from this guy. Fast forward about a year later, the same guy I was buying crack from, and he obviously hadn't been busted in between. No, it was kind of like a training thing. So he was there, let go. Okay, so fast forward a year, in that I was buying crack small amount like 20 bucks, 40 bucks with the crack.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was just taking too long for his guy to turn up and he wanted to chip off my crack as kind of a fee to bring it in his dealer. Yeah, and he got to the point where it's just taken too long. I got the, you know, got the signals, gave the end it. So I tried to end it and he was having none of it and basically went from no, you're a me off, I've done all this work for you. And then, yeah, then he tried to stab me over 40 bucks, basically, gave him the money, get my cell phone and see you later, I'm out of here. And then there you were swinging for didn't get picked up.
Speaker 1:Did he get picked up relatively soon?
Speaker 2:after that, yeah, my covered team kind of intervened, kind of not identified themselves please, but kind of intervened so that I could get away. And then 20, 30 minutes later then general patrol picked him up and resting for robbery and we got the money in cell phone back.
Speaker 1:Well, that's always good. Hopefully you didn't use the cell phone to call anyone. Okay, so we just kicked over the half hour mark. What we might do is leave the interview here and save the rest until the next episode, which will be in a few days time. Thank you for listening to us for in the shadows the interview series, the true stories of real life undercover police officers. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. In the next episode we'll explore more exciting stories from undercover cops from around the world. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're an ex COVID Operative or undercover police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisper in the shadows podcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next time.
