Whisper in the Shadows
Welcome to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’, your gateway into the nerve-wracking work of undercover policing. The true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I’m Michael Bates, an ex-undercover police officer, and this was my reality for over two years. If your fascinated by the truth that lies beneath crime shows, if you hunger for the real-life stories that leap beyond the boundaries of fiction, ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ is here to satisfy your curiosity. From infiltrating drug syndicates to living a double life, every episode uncovers a thrilling true story that pitted me against the face of danger. Don’t miss out on the chance to step into my shoes and experience what it takes to walk the thin line between law and crime. Subscribe to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ and join me, as we delve into the gritty world of undercover policing.
Whisper in the Shadows
Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Conversation - Episode 2 with Keith Banks - Part 1
Stepping into the shoes of a police officer, one seldom considers the invisible scars that come with the badge and the gun. Our guest, Keith Banks, takes us behind the badge, revealing the raw and emotional cost of a life dedicated to law enforcement. As Keith unfolds his transition from a Queensland police officer to a beacon of hope for mental health advocacy, we explore the gritty details of his past and the therapeutic power of storytelling. His journey through PTSD and the challenge of breaking the silence on mental health in the force is not just a tale of survival but a testament to resilience and finding one’s voice in the written word.
The world of policing is complex, and ex-officer Banks doesn’t shy away from exposing the multifaceted nature of PTSD that often goes unrecognized. The conversation takes a turn through the therapeutic corridors of writing, as Keith shares how crafting his narrative became a lifeline in the tumultuous seas of his mind. The lockdowns brought on by a global crisis unexpectedly gifted him the focus to structure his experiences into a compelling narrative that caught the eye of a publisher, allowing us to ponder the human obsession with true crime and the ways in which it reflects our own inner battles and escapes.
Finally, we step back in time to Keith's younger years, understanding the roots of his motivation to join the police force. Delving into the ethical tightrope walked by officers daily, we get an insider's perspective on the need for discipline within the ranks while maintaining a moral compass. Banks shares the psychological impact of working undercover, the struggle to maintain one's humanity when faced with the dark underbelly of the drug trade, and how these experiences shaped both his career and personal life. Join us for an episode that not only pierces through the veil of policing but also shines a beacon on the importance of confronting and healing from the traumas that lurk behind the uniform.
Keith's current books are -
A Gun to The head - https://keithbanks.com.au/drugs-guns-lies
Drugs, Guns and Lies - https://keithbanks.com.au/gun-to-the-head
If you would like to know more about Keith and his speaking engagements or simply want to buy his books then his website is - www.keithbanks.com.au.
Please be sure to Subscribe to and Follow the Podcast so you never miss an Episode and if you like what you are hearing then please "Like" the episode and podcast on your favourite podcast app.
If you would like to be involved in a "Whisper In The Shadows" Podcast through talking about your experiences as an current or former Police/Law Enforcement Officer or tell your stories then I'd love to hear from you.
I can be contacted on my socials below -
Email - whisperintheshadowspodcast@gmail.com
Instagram - @whisperintheshadowspodcast
Facebook - Whisper in the Shadows Podcast Page
Hello and welcome to the Whisper in the Shadow podcast. This is the interview series and these are the true stories of current and former real-life undercover cops. I'm Michael Bates and I was a police officer for 15 years in one of Australia's state police forces. I was also an undercover cop for over two years and you've been following my true stories in my original podcast Well, rather, I was Michael Bates. In my original podcast, well, rather, I was Michael Bates. So full disclosure Michael is not actually my real name. It was my COVID identity I used on most of my operations.
Speaker 1:Everyone has a notion of what undercover policing is all about, whether you call them a narc, a COVID operative, a dog or a UC. Most people seem to confuse plain clothes police or detectives with being undercover. There is a dog or a UC. Most people seem to confuse plainclothes police or detectives with being undercover. There is a very big difference, though. Most plainclothes police detectives don't wear a uniform. That way, they aren't as obtrusive in public. Being undercover is completely different. You become immersed in the world of your targets. When you're an undercover police officer, though, you are the evidence and you are the reason someone gets convicted of their crimes. That is both exciting and dangerous.
Speaker 1:Whilst you have heard my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop, I want to give a voice to all those living amongst us, unseen and unnoticed, who have put their life on the line being an undercover cop. I want to let them tell their real life stories. The interview series is just that an opportunity for current and former undercover police to tell their stories, good and bad, to give you, the listener, a glimpse into something you will likely never get to experience. So let's go and meet our next guest. So let's go and meet our next guest. This podcast includes conversations and discussions about trauma that some people may find triggering. If you or anyone you know is experiencing things discussed here, please contact an organisation like Beyond Blue or Lifeline and talk to someone. Today I'm chatting with Keith Banks, who is a former police officer, covid operative, current author of at least two books that I know of, speaker and advocate. Good morning, keith, welcome to the podcast. How are you today?
Speaker 2:G'day, michael. I'm very well, mate, Always enjoy these sort of conversations and meeting interesting people myself.
Speaker 1:That's good. Look, thank you for agreeing to join the podcast and for agreeing to have a chat about your undercover experiences. Firstly, but obviously, we'll talk about your time in the police and your books and what you're currently doing now. I guess I want to start with getting an understanding or a brief overview of what you've done in your career to date in your career to date.
Speaker 2:Okay, first, 20 years of my working life. I was a Queensland police officer from 1975 to 1995. I started as a junior cadet so I joined the year I turned 17,. Two years in the academy, then sworn member. I resigned in 1995, not for any other reason than I was just emotionally broken. Yep, I had no idea how than I was just emotionally broken. Yep, I had no idea how broken I was until many years later. But I just needed to leave because I loved the job. Worked in a variety of areas in the job and we'll obviously touch on those later. But had I stayed, I don't know what the result would have been, probably not good. I was very fortunate I was approached and offered a job in the corporate sector. So I took that up and I worked for Colesmire, the then largest retailer in the Southern Hemisphere, for five and a half years. Yep, they had a study program so I did a mature age MBA which they paid for and put me through and so on Brilliant program.
Speaker 2:I then got a bit restless and moved into the supply chain for security. I managed a Victorian security company, worked across a couple of areas there. I went back to Borders, books and Music in retail as the Asia Pacific loss and risk manager. Retail as the Asia-Pacific loss and risk manager. Then the borders business model was folding worldwide because they had a Kodak moment where they didn't actually take notice of emerging technology. So I then moved into a general management role with a security organisation across Australia and New Zealand. I was made redundant from that role after a couple of years and that was a bit of a shock. That's what happens in the corporate jungle.
Speaker 2:Did a little consultancy for a while and then I ran another start-up company for a fixed-term contract of 18 months, which again was still working across Australia and New Zealand.
Speaker 2:Then I was approached to apply for a role with the Housing Industry Association as the Deputy Director for Victoria Picked that up, worked there for seven years, I think, and then my last corporate role was Chief Operations Officer for the Real Estate Institute of Victoria. That position was made redundant a couple of years ago. This time I was very happy for that to happen because it enabled me to do what I do now, and in the meantime I'd written two books and, you're right, I'm working on a third. But I'd written two books that were published by Alan Lundgren, the largest publisher in Australia so I was pretty flattered about that. That enabled me to move into a network of public speaking and advocacy for mental health and post-traumatic stress disorder recovery. Not that you can ever fully recover from it, but as someone who's suffered with it for gee three decades undiagnosed for gee, three decades undiagnosed you know my platform now is to use as much opportunity, influence as I can across many networks and drag the conversation about mental health out of the darkness into the light, where it belongs.
Speaker 1:Very true, it's something that I grew up thinking, not thinking. I grew up being told that it's something you don't talk about, and especially in the police. Um, it was always you know you. If the minute you mentioned something about it, it's like you know you, you need to, you need to leave, type thing. Um, and I dare say your experiences in covert, which will come to, were probably worse than mine in the sense of support, in regards to the organizational support and and those, those sorts of things. Um, so, uh, and the royal smile, that right smile, gives it away definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was no support mate, there was absolutely zero so how did you end up in victoria?
Speaker 1:Are you like an AFL team? Better down there.
Speaker 2:No, I'm one of those rare males, mate, and I watch football. I prefer to do stuff, so sorry to all those who do watch football. That's all good. No, mate, I married a Victorian. Okay, I've written about how I met my wife in my second book. She was a serving Victorian detective. When I met her I was running the wing-clipping tactical or strategic intel arm of criminal intelligence, working on outlaw motorcycle gangs. So I happened to be in Victoria, so I met her. We had a long-distance relationship. She then later moved to Brisbane. She left the police and moved to Brisbane After I resigned from the cops. I think I had another 12 months or something and then I was promoted or offered a promotion to Melbourne. So you know she wanted to come back and I was happy to move in.
Speaker 1:It seemed like the right thing at the right time.
Speaker 2:Yeah and look, I just needed to break my world. I needed to get away from things that were triggering me, and you know all of that environment. I saw that as a great opportunity, so I've been here ever since.
Speaker 1:Funny. I can relate. I did exactly the same thing, but I came back to Queensland. So you've written two books, you're in the middle of writing a third. What was the impetus for writing the first book? How did that come about?
Speaker 2:I gee, 11 years after I resigned, I had a major, probably a breakdown or very close to a major, anxiety attack, quite crippling Yep, and I started seeing a counsellor. I had no idea about counselling and I you know it was 2006. So you know, I went through a stage of seeing counsellors, trying to find the right one, knowing full well that I had issues, not understanding what they were all of that. So you know, off and on for the next probably 10 years or so, in and out of counselling offices, no regularity, trying to probably fix myself, I guess through exercise and as much research as I could, not having a great deal of success, because I still drank way too much, I was angry, I was withdrawn, I was all of the classic symptoms of PTSD.
Speaker 2:I started writing a couple of chapters to give to my daughters, because they were then older, they'd grown up with me in that whole world of post-traumatic stress disorder. And it's a disorder for a reason. It's named a disorder for a reason. If it affects your life longer than four to six weeks, it's a disorder. So I wanted to write something to them when I was getting better.
Speaker 2:Um, now, I have to clarify I was never physically violent, I was never mentally abusive. I was just withdrawn.
Speaker 1:I was just, you know, had anger about little things that would flash to the surface um, and I think that's the thing with sorry to interrupt I think that's the thing with ptsd that most people will see it as outbursts of anger that become violent, whereas for a vast majority of people that suffer with it it's small things like snapping at the dog or that sort of thing, which, yes, is a violent reaction. But in society it's probably seen as okay, well, that's just an everyday reaction and that's what it's seen as. In society it's probably seen as okay, well, that's just an everyday reaction and that's what it's put down to. Things have just gotten too much on that particular day, if that makes sense. Yeah, there's no, there's no understanding across that. A number of these little things add up to maybe something like ptsd.
Speaker 2:Yeah look, and book number two, mate, I've written about how someone told me I might have PTSD and I didn't believe him because I thought that was only for people who'd done really dangerous stuff and in hindsight I'd been in gun battles, I'd lost a mate. You know all of that stuff which is really dangerous stuff. So I started writing. I wanted to give the girls something to help them understand why I had been like I had been for so long. So even I didn't write chronologically, I just started writing some things and gave it to one of my daughters to read and she loved it, Gave it to a couple of friends that I knew that I trusted, and gave it to a guy I trained with in my karate dojo that I knew that I trusted, and gave it to a guy trained with the Makaradi Dojo. All of them came back very quickly and you know the conversation was that was excellent. Where's more? We want to read more. You know about your life.
Speaker 2:So I just started writing, mate, and you know the first one I did with a co-author. You know you can call him a ghostwriter, I guess, but I'll be nice and say a co-author. You know you can call him a ghostwriter, I guess, but I'll be nice and say a co-author, because you know he, he helped me, uh, refine my writing style. He wanted to write, he wanted to write creative fiction and and we clashed about that because I wanted the book to be raw and authentic. Um, he's a little bit more flowery in his prose than I am and you'll see the difference between the first and the second book. The second book is pretty raw, Not that it's badly written, I'm told, it's actually better than the first. But I didn't have any flowery descriptions of stuff. I talked about life as it was and it was pretty raw.
Speaker 2:So that's why. So you know, and what happened after that, michael, was that they were published. The first one was published by Alan and I. As I said, a lot of media, a lot of great response. And then we had the infamous lockdown in Victoria where our esteemed and I use the word sarcastically Premier Andrews decided that we're all going to die and so he locked us down, like you know, starlux 17. It was shocking, but during those lockdowns, with brief moments of freedom, we were forced to work from home.
Speaker 2:So I just started writing the second, and just again, this one was chronological for the most part, but I just started writing it and I had a letter from the publisher, or an email, sorry, that came from the publisher who, um, you know this, uh, this grandfather of publishing, as I call him, um, very, very funny man. He said so, keith, uh, I hope you're enjoying lockdown now. What's happening with your second book? And I'd written about, I think, three chapters or four chapters at that stage. So I sent them back to him and literally within three or four days, he'd send an email back with an advance payment and a contract for the second one. I went wow, that's pretty good, very happy with it, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm very flattered.
Speaker 2:I'm very flattered and very honoured that they picked me up as an author.
Speaker 1:Why do you think people like to read and, in my position, listen to watch whatever it is, absorb, consume stories about policing or undercover policing?
Speaker 2:I think true crime, I think the true crime genre, whether it be written or audio or visual, scares people a little bit and because you and I both know there's a whole netherworld out there that the average person never sees, I think it scares them a little bit and I think they want to maybe know what they're missing and they're happy that they're missing it. There's also a component of healthy, normal human curiosity about the evil that people can do to each other. A variety of reasons. You know, when I worked in the book industry and borders the true crime genre, the largest demographic was women.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard that a number of times. Just on that borders thing, do you think somewhere along the line that?
Speaker 2:planted the seed of this writing idea. It may well have, look, although you know, on reflection, my favourite subject when I was at school was English and I enjoyed writing. Then I enjoyed reading great writers. I had a pretty ordinary English and I enjoyed writing. Then I enjoyed reading great writers. I had a pretty ordinary childhood from a domestic abuse perspective, so my escape from that was the library. I used to go and spend hours in the library just reading as much as I could, because for me, you know, books were an escape and an introduction to other worlds that you would never experience. So when I, you know, always wanted to write something but like most of us, I had imposter syndrome, you know, I didn't think that my stories were valuable enough or anyone would want to read them.
Speaker 2:Having said that, perhaps like you, I was great at dinner parties. I always had entertaining stories. People would say tell me another one, tell me another one, tell me another one, and you collect them over a career.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Policing is, I think, probably 95% boring paperwork and 5% sheer terror, and the sheer terror part is what people want to hear about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're right, dinner parties are always a sort of thing, and the imposter syndrome is quite, quite funny, because this podcast not so much the interview parts of it, but the other part of it telling the stories grew out of a desire to probably write a book. And I wrote the book and went you know what that's shit, maybe I'll turn it. And I went no one's actually, because it was that it was that period where, where all the um bookstores were closing down, it's like no one's going to read a book, maybe I'll turn it into a movie. So I I pivoted and put it into a screenplay. Um, life happened and other things happened and I went man, um, then I've come back and I've gone look, I really want to get this out, and I'll delve into why I want to get this out, because I'll ask you some of these same questions a little later on.
Speaker 1:But it was like what are people going to? How are people consuming this sort of information at the moment? And that's how I came up with the podcast Short the stories can be short, punchy. Get it out there and people can then listen to it as well. Started I thought I'll get 100 listens if I can get 100 listens over the entire series of the podcast. You know, I think I I think I pitched myself 15 stories. Um, I'll be happy job done. You know, we're up around 3 000 now and I'm just sort of going oh my god, people actually like this, you know it's the sort of thing that you sit there and think to yourself, no one's going to want to listen to this, no one's going to want to know this.
Speaker 1:But when you do it, as you had with your book, you've written the first one and then the publishers come back to you and said what's happening with the second one? It's like, okay, I'm not that imposter, that I think I am.
Speaker 2:People want to listen to this and I am people want to listen to this and I think also, mate, it shows the human side of policing. You and I both know the emotional impact and toll it takes on human beings. A lot of people's only experience with policing is getting a traffic ticket, unfortunately. But there's a lot more to being a cop than that. It can take a massive human and emotional toll. On the other side of the coin, it's an occupation where you can genuinely help protect people from predators, bring some justice to society as cliched as that sounds and actually get some bloody good outcomes.
Speaker 2:So I wanted to write about the price you pay and I said to my publisher initially look, even if we only have one book, or the first book, rather, when people finish reading it, if they close the last page and go, holy shit, there's more than I ever thought about being a cop. And you know, it helps diminish the imposter syndrome when I read a lot of reviews, because authors should always read reviews of their work, good or bad, good and bad, rather and the amount of people who've spoken about what they've learnt and the appreciation they now have for police is great, you know, and also those who are either veterans veteran police or military veterans or relatives of both that have reviewed it and said you know it's helped them understand more and more about how their family members have been and why, Then, that means just as much, if not more, to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I look at it as I think something you said earlier is that police are human. They have the same emotions, feelings, reactions and those sorts of things that any other person listening to this podcast has throughout the day. They see a lot more and have a lot more happen that affect that, but the expectation is that they're not supposed to show it, um, and people possibly don't understand some of the things that happen, that that that that do affect you know the, the personalities of, of people who are police, um, and the books and hopefully this podcast and this interview series with people who've done the job, people learn to understand that it's not just writing a traffic ticket. That's a basic thing. What police do? Police do things that are really psychologically damaging and the start of getting better around. That is talking about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah. I spend a deal of my time now doing corporate presentations about mental fitness, resilience, recovery, understanding and authenticity, and the first step to recovery and the first step to changing attitudes is to have authentic conversations. And I know we're probably getting a bit off topic, but, um, you know, if someone out there is is and who is listening to this is struggling, the first thing that they need to understand is they're not alone in this. I thought I was the only one that felt that way for 30 years, and it was. It was horrible.
Speaker 2:Um, so you're not by yourself, you're not alone. If you have someone that you can open up to, then do it. If you are the person that's being opened up, to shut the hell up and don't try and solve anything. All people who are suffering want to have is someone who will listen to them without any judgment, without any solution provision, without any of that. They just want someone who can sit in the morass or sit in the mud with them and be there with them and then let them move on. Yeah, so it's the first step, but that's a whole different conversation, mate, that'll take me, you know it is.
Speaker 1:I guess the only thing I would probably add to that is that you don't need to understand, you just need to listen Exactly right, yeah. Yeah, all right. So before I move on, now you've got your own, obviously, website. Where can we find, where can the people listening or watching or listening find your books? Where can they buy them, that sort of stuff? If you can give a plug for?
Speaker 2:your website and that um. So my website is keithbankscomau um, very easy to remember. I, um I keep a stock of books and I'm more than happy to personally inscribe them to whoever would like to buy them. Um, so you jump onto that website. It's a bit clunky at the moment it's actually being updated as we speak but it's easy to find the books and you purchase that way. Whatever message you want on them, you let me know and I have them all sent out. Secondly, booktopia. Booktopia is subject to the whims of Australia Post, but they always have stock.
Speaker 1:As I found out.
Speaker 2:Amazon. The book's available on Kindle, ebooks, kindle and Audible, and, you know, a lot of bookstores still stock them. The product lifecycle of books, though, is around probably two years, I suppose, but if they're not in a bookstore, I'd strongly suggest Booktopia.
Speaker 1:And what are the names of the titles of the books?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the first one is Drugs, guns and Lies. It's about my time as an undercover cop in Queensland's bad old days. And the second is Gun to the Head. So it's my story about the impact and aftermath of a tactical operations policeman, the forerunner to Queensland's Yep. So and Gun to the Head is both physical and metaphorical, so that's the one that was number two, that I'm. You shouldn't have favourites, you know, like you shouldn't have a favourite book Like children. But I've got, so that's my favourite book, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so all those details will be in the description at the bottom underneath, where you're listening or watching this particular podcast, and your website address will be in there as well. So if anyone wants to buy a book or just find out more about Keith, you can go to keithbankscomau. Okay, so what did you want to be when you were growing up?
Speaker 2:Look, as I touched on before mate, I had a pretty challenging childhood. So my stepfather couldn't. My stepfather was one of those generations of australians all too prevalent that um that drank too much and beat his wife and harassed and, you know, terrorized his family, um. So I wanted to. I can probably remember from the time I was eight or nine I wanted to do something that protected people from from that, or protected people from that, or protected people from predators, or protected people from bullies. Essentially, you know. So the police force was always running around in my mind.
Speaker 2:I also, as I got older, went to high school, I joined the Army Cadets and in those days the Army Cadet system taught you how to survive, shoot, navigate, all of the fun stuff that I learned to shoot, and also the discipline was something that I just fell straight into. I loved it. I loved the whole sense of camaraderie. I loved the positive male role models who were teachers at school. So it doesn't take a shrink to figure out why I was really attracted to the ADF and in fact, that was probably my primary focus through my high school life. We moved around a lot from town to town, by the way, so where I ended up in a town near Townsville in Queensland. The local army cadet coordinator was a Vietnam veteran who was a warrant officer class two, amazing bloke, tough as nails, and almost took me under his wing, I suppose because he knew what was happening in my home life. He was getting me ready to apply for Duntroon, which is now ADFA.
Speaker 2:He was convinced I would have been accepted and I probably would have. I was one of those nerdy kids who just realised that I was academically bright and I put all self-deprecation aside. So that was my escape path and I knew if I did well at school I could go anywhere. I could get away from that whole environment Around year 10, I think we had. I could get away from that whole environment Around year 10, I think we had a police recruiter who came to school and talked about the academy, the fact that you in those days could do years 11 and 12 as a paid cadet another 12 months of police training and then be sworn. And I looked at that and thought and I guess it rekindled all of my childhood thoughts about policing I always saw policing as a noble career. Yep, I was never interested in how much it was being paid. It was paid pretty ordinary in those days, ordinarily.
Speaker 1:It was paid pretty ordinary when I joined too.
Speaker 2:It's not bad now. But you know, it wasn't about the money. For me it was about doing something I thought was worthwhile and the situation at home got so bad that I couldn't stay for another year. So you know, in order to apply for Duntroon I would have had to have finished year 12. So at the end of year 11, it was just so I just had to get out, and so I applied for the police force cadet system went through In hindsight I wouldn't say rigorous, but certainly a couple of interviews that were fairly pointed, you know.
Speaker 2:So I wasn't assured at all. But then I was accepted when I was on an Army cadet under officer training camp, you know. So I came back home, my mum had signed the papers. My stepfather hated police, so he was against the whole idea, and again, I've written about that in my first book. And I've been able to do that because my mum sadly passed away some years ago and so did he. So I think had she been alive I wouldn't have been as forthright with those chapters. But that certainly had to be said because it shows motivation, I guess. So that was my thing, it was my escape, and I came to the Academy just before I turned 17, a couple of months before I turned 17.
Speaker 1:Was the academy? Was that a 12-month cadetship?
Speaker 2:in those days. No, I did year 12 and then I did another 12 months as a third-year cadet. Okay, so year 12 was a combination of academic and police studies PTI. You know yelling screaming. It was pretty brutal in those days and it was designed that way, I think, across all academies, to weed out those who were serious and those who weren't, and don't really have a problem with it.
Speaker 1:It's quite funny because when I went through I was a Muppet Now you'll know what that is and we were sitting in a class one day and one of the instructors someone was playing up. One of the instructors said you know, three years ago I'd make you run around the oval with a chair over your head, but I'm not allowed to do it anymore. And so we've all gone. There was 60 of us in the class. We've all gone. Go and do it, do it, do it. So we did, and one of the one of the recruits is doing doing laps with the chair over his head.
Speaker 1:Anyway, the the uh lecturer got called into the um to see I think it's a superintendent that runs the uh academy, um, see the superintendent and got reprimanded because you know, making someone run around, we, you don't do those sorts of things. And we're all sitting there going. Oh my god. You know you're supposed to have self-discipline. You're supposed to be disciplined. Making someone run around the oval with a chair over their head is deemed to be wrong. You know, you've got to learn.
Speaker 2:There are consequences for your actions yeah, look, I look in my time, mate. Um, we ran around the oval for whatever transgressions with a 303, an empty, an unloaded, but an old 303 above our heads and those things are heavy, yeah, you know. So we were made to duck, walk on our haunches for 50 metres up, 50 metres back. You know your push-ups were doled out as punishment 50 metres up, 50 metres back. You know your push-ups were doled out as punishment. Cleaning the toilets with a toothbrush, all of that sort of thing which is very, very military and obviously the world's evolved. But it taught you a lesson and I hated it then but in hindsight didn't have a problem with it because I understood the rationale.
Speaker 1:So you know, the one thing I hear when you talk about those sorts of things is oh, that's very demeaning. How dare people demean you? I look at it in the sense that, okay, maybe cleaning the toilet with a toothbrush is demeaning, but realistically, most people clean the toilet with a big toothbrush anyway. Is it demeaning or is it sort of getting you used to doing things that are going to upset?
Speaker 2:you. Yeah, I think the second and the difference with discipline. When I first joined, you were scared of anyone with the rank of sergeant. You senior sergeants were demigods, inspectors were gods, senior sergeants were demigods, inspectors were gods. And that whole paramilitary discipline thing, you know, I think in a policing environment is essential, because you need to be able to do what the hell you're told to do rather than stand and argue in question, which is something that you develop later. Certainly, as an undercover cop, I had to think on my feet and do my own stuff, but in the initial couple of years of policing, you need to understand that you follow orders for a reason. You can certainly question bad orders, but I think a lot of that. Well, I'm very sure that a lot of that disciplined approach is now gone. You cannot be someone's leader and let them do their own thing. It's you know it's a bit of a vexed question um, it is.
Speaker 1:It is a can of worms that we're probably going in a bit of a rabbit hole. Um, look, I understand, and you lived through this. I came in afterwards. I was one of the the bright, shiny, you know new recruits who were going to change the police for the better. You lived through the bad old days. The rationale behind it is that if you teach people to follow orders without questioning, then corruption is going to happen, because people aren't going to question the orders of those that are above them. They're just going to do Now. I think there's a difference between following orders and discipline.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it depends. I lived in the corrupt environment and I always say to people the vast majority of men and women I met and worked with were honest, as I was. Following orders doesn't mean you have to blindly follow corrupt practices. You can certainly push back against that, as I was Yep. Following orders doesn't mean you have to blindly follow corrupt practices. You can certainly push back against that and I did. My point is more if you are told to do a particular job in a certain way that is, you know, correct you need to be able to follow that. Instruction is probably better than following orders. You need to be able to follow instructions on the road as a cop, a sergeant turns up and says, right, you will go here and do this, you go there and do that. What I do know now is that uh is a lot of younger coppers will argue and yeah, and I think that undermines public confidence in a, in a combined paramilitary force I, I and I.
Speaker 1:I think it also. It undermines confidence, public confidence, because they see it, but it also undermines the identity of the organisation as well in that regard. So one of the things that we had to do was ethics. So we had to go to university and then to the academy and we had to do ethics, and the ethics teachers were all about this fact that police are inherently corrupt, that following orders is inherently corrupt, that getting free McDonald's is inherently corrupt, Without really understanding what policing is and what is required. In regards to, like you said, if a sergeant turns up and says to you, I want you to go and do this. If you think it's illegal or corrupt, you go, okay, well, why? But you don't go. No, I'm not going to do it if it's not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, having lived through the Fitzgerald Inquiry into corruption, I think the term corrupt through the Fitzgerald Inquiry into corruption, I think the term corrupt was bandied about way too much. You know, corruption to me was to take money, steal drugs, steal money. So I'd say take money and bribes, engage in practices that weren't ethical let's throw the word out there for your own personal gain or the gain of others. You know, taking a 50% reduction in a McDonald's fast food chain is not corruption because it's clever business on McDonald's part, because it meant they'd have cops there in areas that were potentially troublesome. You know you'd have the whole conversation again in the rabbit hole about noble cause, corruption as well.
Speaker 2:So I did the undergrad justice studies degree after the inquiry and I railed against the generic all police are corrupt, all police are potentially corrupt narrative in a university setting. I was an experienced guy and I was able to hold my own in an argument or a debate. But what I was more about you know, as a detective sergeant, as a tactical operator, I ran teams. My tactical operators would have never dreamt of arguing the point with me if we were engaged on a high-risk raid, a high-risk job, a siege response, whatever. Because that's what discipline's all about, and I guess that's more my point. In an emergency situation, you need to have a paramilitary organisation where people will obey orders from an operational perspective. The whole conversation around ethics and corruption is another one, and there were certainly a number of people and I was one who railed or pushed back against corrupt offers. So I think that's different from having a disciplined, structured paramilitary force.
Speaker 1:We need to give able to give all.
Speaker 1:I agree, but I think that the way that we're training police now, from my intake onwards, we've thrown both of them to mean the same thing, which is why you're getting instances of people. I can remember when I was a senior Connie and I had a brand new constable with me and someone was being thrown out of the casino and he was arguing and after 35 minutes of standing there trying to convince this guy to leave, I just said to the thing we don't have time for this, tell him to leave or arrest him. And he argued with me well, no, that's not what we've been told we're supposed to do. We're supposed to help people, we're supposed to make them. You know, yes, we are, but if someone's not going to do, you know what I mean there needs to be a consequence, and I think the way that they're training people by taking that discipline out of the academy is causing the police service or the police force or whatever they're calling it these days, more harm, because everything gets lumped together as the one issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a vexed question, isn't it? You want to have police with the ability to operate independently and use discretion to make their own decisions, but you also need to have as I keep saying, it's a paramilitary armed force and make their own decisions, but you also need to have as I keep saying, it's a paramilitary armed force. So there needs to be discipline in that, in which people understand that the rank structure is there for a reason and they do do what they're told. Because if someone's firing shots downrange at you and unfortunately those major things don't happen anymore like they used to before Port Arthur, but I've been to situations and I've written about them where I've just turned up and given orders and taken control and people have responded to the way in which they should have. When you have police officers who decide that you know if they have 12-month service and we all have been there, they have 12-month service and they know better than a non-commissioned officer and they start to argue, then that's when discipline breaks down not, yes, not where policing should be no, agreed.
Speaker 1:Um, all right, let's. Let's bring it back to to the um, the undercover side of stuff. So you've how long were you a police officer before you went into the covert work?
Speaker 2:um, I volunteered for it and I started it two months before I turned 22 okay, so five years. No, I was nearly in four years, it's one in 19, so almost three, three years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why did you want to do uh covert work?
Speaker 2:um, there were people dying in droves of heroin overdoses in the late 70s and early 80s, and right up to the late 80s I think. But heroin had been brought in, was being brought in through pretty unprotected borders. So talk about corruption a combination of corrupt customs officials, unprotected borders, corrupt police all through the country and the heroin trade was out of control. It was really down to a guy called Terence John Clark Clark with an E, who was a New Zealander who ran a major international drug syndicate. So the quality of heroin that was coming in from the Golden Triangle was killing people every day, you know.
Speaker 1:I don't use the term junkies.
Speaker 2:I use the term addicts. I've seen high-functioning addicts in every walk of life, but these young people predominantly young people, and they were middle class. So heroin use wasn't a lower-class drug, it was a middle-class drug. We were finding bodies in toilet cubicles, sometimes on the street, et cetera, in houses and just horrible. So I was fairly idealistic and naive and I thought working undercover would be a good way to do something concrete about the drug trade. And essentially, you know, at that age you think you can change the world and that's what I tried to do. Fair enough, I just didn't realise how much it would change me.
Speaker 1:What was the most difficult thing of working on the cover for you?
Speaker 2:I, in spite of my upbringing, I was actually a nice guy. I was empathetic, I cared about people, I was polite polite, you know. If I had to react on the street and take someone down in a violent blitz, absolutely I would. But you know the core of me, I was just a very nice guy. So the hardest, one of the hardest things, was changing that personality and adopting the personality of a mid-level dealer, and so I portrayed myself as a mid-level heroin dealer. And mid-level heroin dealers don't have the manners and the niceness that I'd had normally.
Speaker 2:So I had to learn and adapt and adopt the mannerisms of others. I had to speak in a certain way that wasn't the norm for me. I had to treat women like crap. I had to assert a position, even at the age of 22, that I was a shaker and a mover, I suppose, in the drug scene. So all of that stuff. One of the hardest things that I ever did was watch a 14-year-old kid be shot up with his first hit of heroin. I thought he was about 17 or 18, but I still couldn't have interfered anyway. And I found out later, about four years later, he'd died of heroin overdose and I carried that guilt for quite some time and probably still do.
Speaker 1:How do you address that guilt? It's never going to go away, okay, but how did you address that guilt?
Speaker 2:Well, when I had my breakdown, I suppose a lot of things had compounded on me. That was one memory that came back and I've just understood through research and self-awareness and therapy that you can't change what's happened in the past. You just need to, as best you can, accept it, um, understand it and move through it. And that sounds simplistic and it's a lot more detailed than that. But you, you know, I just look back on it and think, well, what else could I have done? For years, when I think about that, I would think about I should have, could have, would have. But it's over and done. You know, it's just been an impact on my life. That's one of many trauma.
Speaker 1:And I guess look partially, because I've been there. But the first question that comes to mind is if you'd intervened, then coulda, woulda, shoulda, does that necessarily mean one, a week later? He wasn't going to take a hit some other way? Two what would the outcome have been for you, even though the action was noble, so to speak?
Speaker 2:Well, I was in the middle of a heroin operation and I'd been in this particular region for about three months. The operation went for six and I was working by myself. There was no backup. So I don't know what it was like in your time, but in my time you worked one out and that was it. Um, there were no mobile phones, there were no pages, I didn't wear listening devices very often at all, um, and I was in a house where no one knew where I was. So, you know, had I intervened, um, it would have been completely out of character.
Speaker 1:As I said, I thought he was about 17 or 18 unfortunately, that is where we will have to leave part one of this interview with Keith Banks. Please be sure to listen to part two to find out how Keith dealt with this traumatic experience and a few more interesting discussions. Thank you for listening to Whisper in the Shadows, the interview series, the true stories of real-life undercover police officers. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. In the next episode we'll explore more exciting stories from undercover cops from around the world. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're an ex-COVID operative or undercover police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisperintoshadowspodcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next time.
