Whisper in the Shadows
Welcome to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’, your gateway into the nerve-wracking work of undercover policing. The true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I’m Michael Bates, an ex-undercover police officer, and this was my reality for over two years. If your fascinated by the truth that lies beneath crime shows, if you hunger for the real-life stories that leap beyond the boundaries of fiction, ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ is here to satisfy your curiosity. From infiltrating drug syndicates to living a double life, every episode uncovers a thrilling true story that pitted me against the face of danger. Don’t miss out on the chance to step into my shoes and experience what it takes to walk the thin line between law and crime. Subscribe to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ and join me, as we delve into the gritty world of undercover policing.
Whisper in the Shadows
Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Conversation - Episode 2 with Keith Banks - Part 2
Have you ever pondered the weight of secrets and the cost of deception on one's soul? Join us as former undercover cop Keith Banks takes us on a journey through the emotional labyrinth of covert police work. Keith's candid narration of a teenager's devastating descent into the world of heroin lays the foundation for a profound conversation on the internal strife and guilt that accompanies the necessity to observe without intervention. We tear away the veil to reveal the psychological intricacies, self-acceptance, and the therapeutic avenues that have helped one man navigate the aftermath of harrowing experiences that are par for the course in this line of duty.
As if walking a tightrope without a net, Keith opens up about the adrenaline-infused lifestyle of an undercover officer—the dichotomy of forming genuine bonds with individuals you're fated to betray, and the lure of an existence brimming with fear and excitement. We uncover the oppressive isolation that these officers endure, and the discipline required to not lose themselves to the fabricated identities they portray. This episode will transport you to the hidden world where officers like Keith grapple with the constant threat of exposure and the scarcity of support systems designed to safeguard their mental well-being.
In our heart-to-heart, Keith reflects on the evolving landscape of undercover operations, from the days of scant preparation to the present framework of psychological support and training. The personal sacrifices made by these officers, the wrestle to maintain a balance between their true self and their undercover persona, and the eventual, often underwhelming, transition back to regular police duties are all laid bare. For those drawn to the call of law enforcement, Keith offers wisdom on the quintessential traits necessary for the job and the unvarnished truth behind the badge. This episode is an unfiltered glimpse into the human aspect of policing, underscored by resilience and the spirit of those who serve from the shadows.
Keith's current books are -
A Gun to The head - https://keithbanks.com.au/drugs-guns-lies
Drugs, Guns and Lies - https://keithbanks.com.au/gun-to-the-head
If you would like to know more about Keith and his speaking engagements or simply want to buy his books then his website is - www.keithbanks.com.au.
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If you would like to be involved in a "Whisper In The Shadows" Podcast through talking about your experiences as an current or former Police/Law Enforcement Officer or tell your stories then I'd love to hear from you.
I can be contacted on my socials below -
Email - whisperintheshadowspodcast@gmail.com
Instagram - @whisperintheshadowspodcast
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Hello and welcome to the Whisper in the Shadow podcast. This is the interview series and these are the true stories of current and former real-life undercover cops. I'm Michael Bates and I was a police officer for 15 years in one of Australia's state police forces. I was also an undercover cop for over two years and you've been following my true stories in my original podcast Well, rather, I was Michael Bates. In my original podcast, well, rather, I was Michael Bates. So full disclosure Michael is not actually my real name. It was my COVID identity I used on most of my operations.
Speaker 1:Everyone has a notion of what undercover policing is all about, whether you call them a narc, a COVID operative, a dog or a UC. Most people seem to confuse plain clothes police or detectives with being undercover. There is a dog or a UC. Most people seem to confuse plainclothes police or detectives with being undercover. There is a very big difference, though. Most plainclothes police detectives don't wear a uniform. That way, they aren't as obtrusive in public. Being undercover is completely different. You become immersed in the world of your targets. When you're an undercover police officer, though, you are the evidence and you are the reason someone gets convicted of their crimes. That is both exciting and dangerous.
Speaker 1:Whilst you have heard my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop, I want to give a voice to all those living amongst us, unseen and unnoticed, who have put their life on the line being an undercover cop. I want to let them tell their real life stories. The interview series is just that an opportunity for current and former undercover police to tell their stories, good and bad, to give you, the listener, a glimpse into something you will likely never get to experience. So let's go and meet our next guest. So let's go and meet our next guest. This podcast includes conversations and discussions about trauma that some people may find triggering. If you or anyone you know is experiencing things discussed here, please contact an organization like Beyond Blue or Lifeline and talk to someone. Welcome to part two of my interview with Keith Banks. We finished part one with Keith discussing one of the hardest things he had to deal with during his time undercover. Let's now pick that conversation up with a retelling of that moment.
Speaker 2:One of the hardest things that I ever did was watch a 14-year-old kid be shot up with his first hit of heroin. I thought he was about 17 or 18, but I still couldn't have interfered anyway. And I found out later, about four years later he died of heroin overdose and I carried that guilt for quite some time and probably still do.
Speaker 1:How do you address that guilt? It's never going to go away, okay. But how did you address that guilt to to? It's never going to go away, okay, um, but how, how do you? How, how did you address that guilt?
Speaker 2:well, when I, you know I had my breakdown, I suppose a lot of things had compounded on me. That was one memory that came back um, and I've just understood through research and self-awareness and therapy, that you can't change what's happened in the past. You just need to, as best you can, accept it um, understand it and move through it. And that sounds simplistic and it's a lot more detailed than that, but, you know, I just look back on it and think, well, what else could I have done? Um, for years, when I think about that, I would think about I should have, could have, would have. But it's over and done. You know, it's just been a, an impact on my life.
Speaker 1:That's um one of many trauma and I guess look may it partially, because I've been there. But the first question that comes to mind is if you'd intervened, then could have woulda shoulda. Does that necessarily mean one a week later? He wasn't going to take a hit some other way. Two what would the outcome have been for you, even though the action was noble, so to speak?
Speaker 2:Well, I was in the middle of a heroin operation and I'd been in this particular region for about three months. The operation went for six and I was working by myself. There was no backup. So I don't know what it was like in your time, but in my time you worked one out and that was it. There were no mobile phones, there were no pages, I didn't wear listening devices very often at all and I was in a house where no one knew where I was. So, you know, had I intervened, it would have been completely out of character. As I said, I thought he was about 17 or 18.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Would have been completely out of character for a heroin dealer who was buying high-quality heroin in that area, so on the Gold Coast would have been completely sus for me to go. Hey, what do you think you're doing? Because my assumed identity I was dealing, I was making a lot of money out of it.
Speaker 2:So it could have resulted in some physical danger. To me, it certainly would have blown the operation and they're just decisions you make on the spur of the moment, because that's when you have to think independently, blown the operation. And they're just decisions you make on the spur of the moment because that's when you have to think independently and you know. Hence our last conversation about discipline. Undercover is an area where you need to think on your feet and take decisions. And there I was at the tender old age of, I think, probably 23.
Speaker 1:Of I think probably 23. And I guess the point I'm making is that we beat ourselves up maybe not consciously but unconsciously over these sorts of decisions, that there really isn't any other decision that could have been made at the time and it's not your fault that that happened, it's other people's fault that it happened. But, working covertly, you take a lot of that on and, whether it's consciously or unconsciously, you think about it and, as you said, it's not until you go through a, an episode where where you you're forced to confront the reasons behind um, the behavior, that, that, that, that you have that, or the feelings that you have that you, you start to reflect on that and go, oh, that could be one of the things that's sitting at the back of of why this has all come to where it's come. That's probably gone off a little bit tangent to the point that I was trying to make, more to the point that a lot of things that happen happen out of the control of police in general, and covert police especially, that we allow to weigh on us without thinking that it's weighing on us.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that I talk about is the fact that I became friends with some of the people I was dealing with dealing with you know, dealing with not dealing with you know, buying drugs from buying property, from whatever it was. They were actually nice people and there's a part of you actually nice people and there's a part of you where you have to go. Okay, here I am with a person that I think is okay, they think I'm okay, they believe that I'm a not a good person obviously a bad person because I'm buying drugs, um but is an okay person who has, you know, a daily interaction with them or have you, but at the heart it, I know that what I'm doing is going to change their life profoundly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sense of identity is interesting. So you know, again, I've written very openly and I've spoken very openly about the fact that there were a lot of people I met when I was undercover, whose company I've referred to, that have a lot of police. So you know, and that's the challenge it's one of the challenges of working as a UC is that you need to remember who you are at the core of yourself. You're operating under an assumed name, You're acting in a way that's not normal, et cetera.
Speaker 2:But I found there were some drug dealers that I could actually relax with, not to the extent obviously relaxing completely, but I had a lot of fun with. I'd look forward to having a beer with them, I'd have a chat with them, We'd have a laugh, We'd make our drug deals, Then we'd socialize. Often I preferred buying heroin because it was a business deal. But when you're enmeshed in an ongoing operation and you become part of their world, then it's impossible not to socialise with them. So you know, I'd have a mantra in the morning when I'd get up and I'd literally look in front, look in the mirror and say your name is Jim I think was my name. Then You're a heroin dealer, but you're also a cop, and I just had this little psychological mantra to just say never forget who you are.
Speaker 1:A bit like that scene out of Reservoir Dogs before he goes off on the Rehearsing the story. Yeah, Well, no, not that part. But just before he goes off To do the Smash and grab the diamond heist, he puts his ring on and he says I am this. I am a police officer, I'm working undercover. You've got this. They don't know who I am.
Speaker 2:Similar, yeah, very similar, and I'd be surprised if a lot of UCs Don't do the same thing I do, because you need to remember why you're there and why you're doing it. But having said that, mate, look, you know. Let's be brutally honest, working in that world is a rush and it's adrenaline, fear and exhilaration, you know, at the same time.
Speaker 2:And it's like a friend of mine describes it very well fear and exhilaration at the same time. And it's like a friend of mine describes it very well. Think about the most dangerous thing you've ever done in your life, whether it be jumping out of a plane or off a cliff or hot air ballooning or whatever. Get that in your mind and then do it three times a week for two years. That's what undercover is like and that stuff becomes quite addictive. You know the adrenaline, the fear. I think I've used a phrase that you know fear and exhilaration of my brothers. Um, but be careful what you wish for, because that life, as appealing as it was, you know and back in those days hair regulations were were strictly enforced. You, your uniform had to be pristine. All of you would be screamed at or punished if it wasn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And having worked in a uniform environment where everything is strictly controlled, and then moving into the undercover world where we had no control, no controllers, no specific contacts, no backup, no support and living alone, often wearing what you wanted dressing, you know, looking how you wanted, hair, beards, earrings you know police weren't allowed to have beards in those days, earrings were certainly never allowed. So to be able to change your appearance and dress the way you want and look the way you want was kind of cool. And not being told when to take a meal break and not being told when to be at the office, not being told when to leave the office all of that for a young bloke was really appealing. The problem was, with that freedom came no support. So you know, again, in my first book I've written about having being forced to take a line of speed at gunpoint, probably two lines of speed at gunpoint.
Speaker 2:Never used drugs in my life and uh, and there was zero support from the drug squad. You know when I reported it, when I snuck into the office and said, okay, here's the speed I bought from this guy put a gun on my face. I went oh big deal. And they, you know, we'll put on the running sheet, he's got a gun just when they do the raids. I was never asked how I was. I was never asked if I, you know, if I needed any help and the culture was different then as well. It was an alpha male, alpha female culture and, as you touched on before, and if you showed any weakness you'd probably be thrown to the wolves yeah you know.
Speaker 2:So if you weakness, you wouldn't be regarded well. You know, if you showed certainly any sign of mental weakness or mental health concerns and I say mental weakness because that's what we've been regarded as if you showed any mental health concerns, you'd be sidelined because you wouldn't be trusted. So all of that stuff has a compounding effect. So undercover for me was a rush. It was an environment where we did smoke a lot of cannabis. You know we weren't formally encouraged to, but we were informally encouraged to just do what you've got to do. There were friends of mine who used um. One of one of them started using heroin because he was in a situation he had to. He became very quickly addicted. Um, some of us have those personalities. I never used it, I never wanted to use it, I never would have used it. But but he had no choice.
Speaker 1:Is there a reason? Talking about the personality? So I was very aware that I have an addictive personality, which was why I always came up with an excuse as to why I couldn't use, you know, I simulated, as we called it, smoking dope. But I was aware that I had a family history of addictive personality and my concern was and you know, I've since worked out that I do have an addictive personality my concern was that by starting, even, even, you know, taking something small just to show I could do it, was going to lead down to becoming an addict. So I didn't. Do you think that the job itself, the UC work itself, lends towards people who have that addictive personality?
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't, I'm just trying to think of all the people I knew. Again, that's a whole psychological discussion, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Well, you wouldn't have had the casino in your days, would you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the casino on the Gold Coast was in operation in the 80s. Oh, possibly, okay, yeah, but I simply I just didn't want to put that shit in my body. So you know, from day one when I was buying heroin, I'd just say I'm this for the money, I'm not in it for the rest of it. And that got some actually got a lot of admiration from a street level and certainly then when I started buying from more advanced dealers, they regarded me as one of theirs because they were the same.
Speaker 2:But I think the addictive personality part for me was alcohol. I didn't drink before I started working undercover and it got good to me pretty quickly. So that was what I had to watch, and I still do all these years later. So yeah, it's an interesting question. But you know, when you've got young men with no supervision and they think they have to take drugs to prove that they're part of it, um, that's that caused a lot of problems, you know, resulted in a lot of, a lot of broken careers did you have to do a call and just um, I think prior to your book coming out, there's been two or three others.
Speaker 1:Dan Crowley has written wrote a book about his time more to do with the undercover and the playing football people who are probably around your era of working on the cover, who became addicts. You know talking about people that went on to become. I think there was one who went on to become a bank robber or robbed banks maybe not a bank robber, but went down that path and got caught. Yeah, when you went through and said, okay, hey, I want to be a UC. Was there a course? Was there anything at all? Or was it like, all right, go find yourself somewhere to live. Here's $1,000. There was nothing.
Speaker 2:We were simply accepted, took some leave to grow hair or whatever, and came back and started. So the first job I did, I tagged with another uc for three or four weeks to try and learn as best I could and then basically thrown into the deep end. Um, as I progressed through my and I was only there for two years um, I became pretty vocal about that. So every new uc that would come in would work with me or work with another, established undercover for more than a couple of weeks. So you know, we basically had our own informal training course. But no, there was nothing. Pretty much learn on the job, learn from your mates. So it progressed. Later. After I left, I went back to the drug squad as a detective about a year or two later and we started looking at a training course. I think the first covert police officer course might have been 88, 89 somewhere around there, because I instructed on a couple of them, but in my day there was nothing.
Speaker 1:So when 95, 96 you know that sounds about right 95 96, 97 I um was when I did it and there was a three-week course, there was a proper, a proper um unit, covert unit there were. There was a senior sergeant, there was a couple of sergeants who had our welfare at heart, you know they did. The sergeants were really, really good. There was no you know the things we've been talking about. There was, there was an understanding, but no real organizational drive behind that. It was just if you've got a problem, give me a call, if you want to talk, give me a call.
Speaker 1:I at least had a controller who I spoke to virtually every day on some jobs. On other jobs it might be two or three times a week. So it had changed and as I left, they were talking about bringing in drug testing and they were talking about bringing in a psychologist to talk to prior to leaving and they were capping the amount of time that you could do two years. So you could do two years, that was it, no more, and then you're out. So they were taking steps in the right direction. I still think a lot of it was more. This is what we're going to do, as opposed to what they actually did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we have to be careful, I suppose, about how much we're talking about this, I guess. But from my perspective, when I was a detective sergeant in the crime operations area, I was in the major crime area. I was running two coverts in the property world. Yep, I absolutely made sure that their welfare was first and foremost in my mind. They had all the support they wanted. Things had changed, certainly from an equipment and a resourcing and a methodology perspective, but I wanted to make sure they were okay. Yeah, and a resourcing and a methodology perspective, but I wanted to make sure they were okay. So that was my focus and I did that because there was no support for my cohort. And I think it comes down to it's like anything in policing, mate it comes down to the individual officer, whether an NCO or a senior county or whoever's in charge.
Speaker 2:I was a controller for a little while as well. Controller for a while as a part-time thing, but it just comes down to the individual and their focus on mental health and welfare, and I know these operators that were working for me were incredibly grateful and still are.
Speaker 1:And I guess maybe I wasn't clear the people that were involved individually, as in my controllers and the sergeants that I reported to, they had our best interests at heart and, just as you said, I think, organisationally, the organisation itself was oh yeah, we're going to do this, but it was not really. Do you know what I mean? It was like, yeah, I do, yeah, yeah, we're going to do this, but it was not really. Do you know what I mean it was?
Speaker 2:like yeah, I do, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that wasn't a. It's not a reflection on the people, because the people and you know I still catch up with the sergeants who ran the squad now, some 20 years later, and they still have your welfare at heart. But as an organisation, the organisation will go, will go. Oh, we're going to introduce drug testing, we're going to introduce psychologists, but it wasn't really done properly yeah, that's what I was trying to.
Speaker 2:That's what I was trying to say, mate, it's. You know, organizations can have the best um intentions, but it comes down to the individual person who's actually looking after others.
Speaker 2:That I think counts um, but you know the the whole. The undercover world is one where identity is key and the biggest challenge is retaining your sense of identity and who you are and yet portraying another character. So that's where you know, and I was going to say family support, but that's where support, know, and and um, I was going to say family support, but, um, that's where support of your peers and your network and and people who know what you're doing is important. But in my day we just went deep. I certainly did. I um lied to my friends who were not cops. I lied to some cops and just said I'd been fired.
Speaker 2:I've been, you know, removed from the police. All my civilian friends thought I was disgraced and I did that. You know, living a dual identity. So when I finished my undercover time, I thought I was pretty much unscathed. It's only years later that I've realised that. You know that there were some pretty traumatic things in there that affected my personality and had an impact on me later. And working undercover is all about a duality of existence, isn't it?
Speaker 2:You know, you need to be careful that the fun part of portraying someone who's not you doesn't take over the real part of who's you, and there are a lot of case studies around the world where that's happened. There's a lot of UCs that have worked in a variety of areas. Some of the states I've read about, who've infiltrated outlaw motorcycle gangs and have been riding with them for three and four or five years, have found it impossible to come back to the real world.
Speaker 1:And it's interesting that duality that you talk about Now. We may not have gone as deep as what you're talking about, although I was probably the level below where you were dealing. I got married during my time working undercover. So you know, I finished a job, got married, went away for two weeks for honeymoon, came back, started another job. The duality around that was that the next job. I had to pretend I was well, not the next job, one of the jobs down the track. I had to pretend that I was gay and I spent every single night at a strip club with strippers. Yet I was newly married and it's this whole. And you know I couldn't tell my then wife oh yeah, what are you doing tonight? I'm just going down to the strip club. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:That was going to cause issues and I guess the way I rationaled it at the time was this is a game, I'm playing the game. My role in this game is I'm getting evidence to put the bad people away. The other people in the game are the bad people and and that's how I personally kept my I don't want to say sanity, but kept my identity of that line I I was was able to to have a good grasp of that line, because I viewed it as a game. Now I have had discussions with people who have done undercover and they've gone. You know it's not a game, it's more than a game, it's real life, which it is. But I had to view it in that sense to give my brain the ability to sort of go don't go too far down one side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess we all cope with it a little differently. See, the difference in my era was that we lived 24 hours in an operation, you know so, even operations in Brisbane. I was armed all the time every time I left my unit because I would run into people, you know, because Brisbane's a small town. So majority of jobs I did were outside the metropolitan area, which means all the dealers knew where you lived. You know, you had to be on 24 hours a day. You had to ensure that your demeanour and your behaviour was on all the time.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I didn't have relationships, I couldn't have been able to manage a relationship and work undercover because we were always, always away and always on. So, yeah, different eras, I guess. And you know, I am aware that I've got a friend in the USA, who's got a friend in Canada as well, who I mentioned when we chatted before the podcast. You know, these guys are working full-time, you see, yep, and yet there are others who do occasional jobs, you know, and then go back to a normal life for a while, then do an occasional job.
Speaker 1:That blows my mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess the conversation days about how the undercover world operated as best as we're allowed to say, as you know, and also, I guess, the personal impact. So I've had friends who've gone to jail because they crossed the line. I've had friends who have never really been able to come back to the real world and be who they were before. I've had other friends who were easily able to adapt back to policing and had a long and fruitful career. So I think it just comes down to the individual, but also it's vital for an organisation to have that follow-up and support and reintegration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and having been out of the organisation now, I left in 2004, 2003. Yeah, so I've been out nearly 20 years now. I can't tell you whether that's happened or whether that's changed. I just want to change tack. What are some of the biggest myths you think the public have about undercover work?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest myth number one is they think it's glamorous, you know. Number two is that undercovers always have surveillance around them, and I don't know what happens now, but you know people used to think that we were followed by surveillance teams everywhere and we had little transmitting devices on our bodies. And again, that was another myth. And that, you know, the undercover world is surrounded by beautiful women and you know parties, et cetera, and a lot of it is not. A lot of it's very lonely, a lot of it's very mentally demanding, it's draining, it's exhausting. You never sleep properly, you certainly. You know hypervigilance is a sign of PTSD, but you live your life in a hypervigilant state. And I would think the other is that, you know, if you were raised in the 80s, it was Miami Vice where you had Sonny Crockett and Tubbs who were driving Maseratis and Lamborghinis and dressing the way they were.
Speaker 2:It's a dirty job, where you live, to meet people with the firm intention of betraying them, and that's something that the general public wouldn't see or understand. It's tough as a human being to befriend someone, as we talked about, with the intention of betraying them. Yeah, without doubt.
Speaker 1:And that has. You know it has lasting impacts and you know I've spoken about this in my podcast. You know I've divorced twice. It's tough to have a relationship and I think part of that is because there's always that. You know, once you have, uh, for me the relationship is okay. Well, what's the? Do you know what I mean? There's always that, that, that thought of what's the purpose in this relationship. You know, you just go into that. Oh, this is what I've done previously. There's a, there's a whole, whole Pandora's box here I'm not going to open, which has been opened in other places.
Speaker 1:Trusting people is tough. Yeah, it's not so much trusting, it's trusting myself with that person.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess I'm on the other way as well, mate, because, being such an accomplished liar, you probably subconsciously wonder whether you can trust anybody.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, no, I guess that's probably true. What's something surprising you learned about yourself doing undercover work?
Speaker 2:Probably how, probably how I adapted fairly well and fairly quickly to new situations. You know, I I was a bit of a shy kid. I was, you know, as I said, a nice young cop and it surprised me how quickly I could establish relationships, I think, and overcome that shyness and just blend in and be a chameleon. I didn't think I'd be that good at it, but I was.
Speaker 1:When you were first a police officer did people say oh, you just look like a copper.
Speaker 2:No, never, no, not even now, even at my age and social circumstances. People find out my background and go wow, I never thought you'd be one of them. Um, and I and I deliberately um, manufactured that as well I did not want to be like a lot of my peers, you know, who were probably brash, you know, know, overbearing typical coppers. No, and I think also and this sounds a bit arrogant, but I wanted to be the one that people would go oh, actually I met this cop the other day. He's a pretty cool bloke and he's a nice guy and they're not all bastards, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think you were alone in that. That was something that I have. Now, you know, I think there are probably more people than not that thought I was a real bastard. But hey, the intent was there. I just wanted to touch on. You said when you left you went straight back to the drug squad.
Speaker 2:Sorry, no, no, eventually, back to the drug squad. I went back to the uniform for six months.
Speaker 1:Okay, Now we did the same. I went back and stayed in uniform, the rationale being that you need to learn to be a police officer again and get that undercover stuff out of your system. What sort of backlash isn't the word I want, but it's the word I'll use. Did you get from the crusty old senior sergeants who have been in the job 30 years, 40 years, and here you were, someone who'd been running around playing pretend coming back to uniform to be a real police officer?
Speaker 2:I made quite the opposite. Actually, I had a lot of support. I had a lot of support from older coppers because I think they understood, you know, that being an undercover I don't know how they did, but being an undercover was a tough gig. So I didn't. No, I don't know how they did, but being an undercover was a tough gig, so I didn't. No, I didn't have a lot of backlash at all. The consequence I found was that I just didn't like it anymore, just didn't excite me enough, you know. So I was looking for the next rush. And I do know, you know, I have said to people over the years when you finish UC, don't expect a tick-tape parade.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:But what I mean by that is people aren't going to go. Oh my God, you're so wonderful, but I had some. No, I had a lot of support. I remember I went back the first day back into mobile patrols which doesn't exist anymore and I'd had my hair cut but it still wasn't regulation and the superintendent was addressing the newer IVs and he thought I was a trainee and made a pointed comment about hair regulations. And then he came and got me an hour or two later after he realised where I'd come from. He said oh, don't worry about that, mate. Jesus, I heard you finished at the druggies, thank you. And he said the hair conversation. He said for trainees, don't worry about it. Um, so that was that was remind you, he was one out of the box, um, so yeah, the support was pretty good.
Speaker 1:I um, I had my nose pierced during the entire period I was working on the cover and chucked my uniform on. Then I've gone. Oh shit, I haven't taken my nose ring yet I didn't go that far. Yeah, that was a bet that was made that no one else turned up to and I went oh, stuff it, I'll still have to go through it and get my nose pierced. And it's interesting because I've heard stories where people go hey, that's really good. You know, the people I work with wanted to know about you know, I was working with a.
Speaker 1:I'd been in a week and I was working with a trainee. It was like, yeah, okay, you look after the trainee and she loved hearing the stories and that sort of stuff. I did have a senior sergeant that said to me you know, you're a washed-up UC, you don't understand policing, you've got no idea now about what real policing is. You're just a druggie. And it was like, well, you don't know me, that sort of thing. And there is. I reckon there's probably a 60-40 split of people who have that experience when they come out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you get some clowns everywhere and unfortunately, I think the clown's comment you know I would have responded to him in a certain way which may not have been in keeping with.
Speaker 1:He was an inspector, so I still had a little bit of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know, I came out with a lack of respect for authority. I came out with independent thinking, you know, and I certainly would challenge stupidity where I saw it, which didn't do me all that well in my later career. But you know, I think when you have negative comments like that, you probably remember them more than the positive ones. Yeah, and that's just the nature of life, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's been 30 years since that's happened and I remember that comment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you wouldn't expect that, you know that level of or that type of comment to be made to someone that it may well have been jealousy, may well have been, um, he wanted to do it years ago and wasn't able to. Who'd know what motivation is for that it was probably about your vintage, that's for sure, so may well have been the case.
Speaker 1:Do you have a war story? People love war stories and some people like telling them, some people don't. Do you have a story that that you can sort of talk us through something, a buy that you did that was stands out to you? Do you remember to this day that you either go how did I get through that? Or why did?
Speaker 2:that happen any of them.
Speaker 2:Um, look there was. Uh, there was a job I did in north queensland, this time with a colleague, and, and I went up there as the controller, um, because he'd been undercover for five years. He was burnt out, poor, poor brother, and I was supposed to be the controller. I ended up moving in the same unit and just worked with him as a side-by-side UC. We had a list of targets that we'd worked on, we'd bought from, you know. So it was again a deep operation, yep.
Speaker 2:But we came across this guy who told us that he told us a certain name which turned out not to be his name. Told us that he told us a certain name which turned out not to be his name. It's okay, I told him our names and it turned out not to be ours and we got on quite well. And he was an ex-Gypsy Joker, biker, bikey. Yep, didn't know much else about his background and we were buying a lot of drugs from him. We were setting up a major, major buy, probably about 200 grand. In those days In the 80s. It was a lot of money.
Speaker 2:And it was going to take place in Kuranda, north of Cairns, in the rainforest. So all organized and did the job and a couple of things happened and I've written about it in the book as well. I was recognized by someone I'd gone to school with when I was with him and I tapped ants my way out of that. But I remember he looked at me with his evil eyes and I thought oof, you know Jesus. Anyway, end of the job happens.
Speaker 2:The buyer didn't go ahead for a couple of reasons, but when he was arrested he told the investigating detectives that well, you got me, Investigating detectives, that well you got me. I'm an escapee from Yatla prison in Adelaide. He'd murdered two guys in the Northern Territory, cut them up with a knife for a while, then turned them face down and shot them in the back of the head. I think he thought they had a lot of gold with them and they didn't, because they were prospectors. Anyway, he'd been sentenced, He'd gleefully escaped from Yatla and he'd been on the run for quite some time and he told them that he'd intended to kill me for the buy money.
Speaker 2:And the detective told me that and I went. Well, that's disappointing because I thought we were mates and we actually got on very well. We used to get out and drink and you know, and have an entertaining time together and the irony is all the time I was planning to betray him and have him sent to jail. He was planning to betray me and kill me and we both gave each other false names. That's one of the most ironic ones I've got yeah, no, that's.
Speaker 1:I think it's a little bit more than ironic. But it's interesting too that Cairns seems to be the place that most pardon the paraphrasing. Here, dead shits end up at the end of the line.
Speaker 2:Yeah, north of Cairns made up in Cape Trib, it's still a good place to hide.
Speaker 1:Yep, most definitely. Last couple of questions for you. Most definitely Last couple of questions for you. What do you think is the most crucial trait someone needs to be, firstly, a police officer and secondly, if they're a police officer and want to go undercover.
Speaker 2:I think, a sense of justice in both. I think you really have to have a sense of justice and fairness and to be a cop, it's not about running red lights and driving at high speed Not your lad, do that anymore anyway.
Speaker 2:It was fun though it was, it's just about to have a sense of fairness about what you do being an undercover cop. I would think that you just need to be aware of how it will change you as a person. I didn't realise it would Probably for the better in some circumstances, but probably for the worse in others. But you know, it's not as glamorous as it seems, and be prepared for it to be dirty, sometimes unjust and bloody hard work.
Speaker 1:Very true. Last question what advice? No, I just asked you what advice, didn't I? No, I asked what advice do you have for someone who wants to be a police officer firstly, and then secondly, who wants to be a UC? But I think you just answered that with the UC is the understanding. Well, what advice would you have for someone who wants to be a police officer full stop?
Speaker 2:I still think it's the best job in the world. I still think it's the most noble profession you can do. It broke me, but I pushed myself forward for every dangerous job I could get, and that's for a number of reasons. And again, a bit of a teaser read about them and it's all there.
Speaker 2:But I think, being a cop, you need to also be aware that your network around you will view you differently. Um, you will always be bill the cop or mary the cop. Um, you won't be bill or mary anymore. You will see the worst that people can do to each other and that that's you know. That's an experience that will change you. But it also gives you the reality of life, and I think it's important to understand the reality of life because it can make you a more rounded and better person. It can also make you be well aware of your family dynamics and your friends dynamics, because you you become very protective. I would much rather have seen what I've seen and gone through what I've gone through than have lived my life in blissful ignorance. I think that would be a boring, boring life to lead.
Speaker 1:I agree. Just in regards to that we talk about, you're glad that you've done it. As major the person you are now, and all those sorts of things, we've acknowledged the psychological issues and the psychological impacts that both you, myself and yourself it has had. What would you say to someone who wants to join the police in regards to how do you protect yourself as much as you can to not fall victim to those impacts?
Speaker 2:That's a hard one, mate, you know. Building of resilience, building of personal resilience that's what I present to organisations about now. In order to be resilient, you have to almost be broken, and building resilience is about falling down eight. Falling down seven times, standing up eight. I think the ability to have a good, strong network around you, the ability to be authentic with your friends, family, partners, whatever about how things are affecting you, is vital. And you know there's a lot of things.
Speaker 2:The Holy Trinity sleep, diet, exercise. You know, in order to build resilience, if you sleep well, if you eat as best you can, occasional KFC doesn't hurt, but also start getting into exercise right now and continue it all through your police career. Don't fall into the don't be a dick, let's go to the pub mentality that used to exist. So you know, sleep, diet, exercise incredible, incredible components of mental health. And the other is to um, understand and learn that you can't change anything, anything that's outside your circle of influence. Yep, now, whatever you can do within that circle to change and be a good person and positively affect others, absolutely do it every day. But what you can't change, learn to let it go. And if you do that, then your mental health and fitness are going to be in a much better position than others.
Speaker 1:I'd probably add on to that that don't be ashamed to talk to someone when you need to, and don't feel that it's wrong to talk about your feelings with someone who will listen to you for sure yeah, absolutely alright, look, probably a good place to end the interview with you. Keith, thank you very much for your time.
Speaker 2:We've had a long chat there, mate, haven't we?
Speaker 1:we have. It's been almost an hour and a half. Um, it's been very enlightening for me and, um, I'm sure for the listeners of the podcast that it will be very enlightening as well.
Speaker 2:What I'll do is, before winding up, I'll leave the last comment to you um, look, I think these podcasts and all information that we can get to members of the public have a twofold effect. One is that they will realise policing is not what they thought it was, that it has a human toll. But I think also, you know people that you're going to be speaking with and these types of podcasts, I think the listeners, hopefully, will have a greater sense of comfort that policing is generally populated by good people and not corrupted by the few who aren't?
Speaker 1:I totally agree with that. Now your website again keithbankscomau. Keithbankscomau. Yes, your books are for sale there or you can find them online. I suggest that you check them out.
Speaker 1:And, keith, thank you for your time today and to everyone else. Thank you for listening to the Whisper in the Shadows the interview series podcast. If you're a current or past undercover cop and you'd like to tell your story or talk about what you do just to tell your story or talk about what you do, just as Keith has done then please email me at whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. Thank you very much and we'll catch you next time. Thanks, mate. Thank you for listening to Whisper in the Shadows the interview series the true stories of real life undercover police officers. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. In the next episode, we'll explore more exciting stories from undercover cops from around the world. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're an ex-COVID operative or undercover police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisperintoshadowspodcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next time.
