The Ability to Discern Truth from Performance - The Art of Undercover Survival

Step into the shadow-laced world of undercover police work as I, Michael Bates, peel back the curtain on the dangerous game of living a double life amidst criminals. Imagine the ethical tightrope walked when a first night's conversation with Tiffany, a young stripper, blurs the lines between duty and humanity. Our exchange, under the neon glow, is more than it seems—funded by the department's money, it's a dance of deception for the sake of justice. In this realm, an officer's tools are not just handcuffs and a badge, but also the ability to discern truth from performance.

With an ear tuned to the silent alarms of instinct, we navigate scenarios that challenge our preconceptions and test the limits of our experience. From the unexpected discovery of crime by observing the minutiae of human behaviour to the calculated risks of drug deals with volatile criminals, each narrative thread weaves a larger story. As your guide, I recount chilling moments like the tragic fate of a puppy used to send a violent message, and the strategic severing of ties with risky contacts. Join us as we journey through the underbelly of society, where every encounter could be a story of survival or a step toward taking down those who lurk within.

Chapters

• 0:04 Undercover Cop Podcast
• 11:19 Police Gut Feel and Stereotypes
• 23:27 Undercover Experiences With Dangerous Criminals

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Hello and welcome to my podcast Whisper in the Shadows the true story of a real-life undercover cop. I'm Michael Bates and I was a police officer for 15 years in one of the country's state police forces. I was also an undercover cop for over two years, and all the episodes of this podcast are my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop. Rather, I was Michael Bates, so full disclosure Michael is not actually my real name. It was my COVID identity I used on most of my operations. Everyone has a notion of what undercover policing is all about, whether you think they are a narc, a COVID operative, a dog or an undercover cop. Most people seem to confuse playing close police with being undercover. There is a very big difference, though. Most playing close police don't wear a uniform, so they aren't as obtrusive in public. Being covert is completely different, though. You become immersed in the world of your targets. When you're a police officer, part of your role is to investigate crimes. This means you try and find evidence to prove the person you have arrested has committed that crime. Now, this evidence can consist of physical, verbal, video and witnesses. When you're an undercover police officer, though, you are the evidence and you are the reason someone gets convicted of the crimes. That is both exciting and dangerous, so why don't we get on with the next episode? Thanks for joining me again on the Whisper in the Shadows podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:43

Last week, betty and I had had our Star Wars moment and later that night gone to a strip club because she had to meet with someone. Now, this person would eventually become a target, but not that night. So whilst Betty was off having a chat, I was sitting and watching the entertainment. The club manager came in with what appeared to be a new girl and she was giving her both instructions and encouragement at the same time. The manager had seen me before with Betty, so knew of me. I don't think she was convinced of who I really was, though this young woman she had with her. It was her first night stripping. You could really tell. If I had to guess, she would have been maybe 20.

Speaker 1: 2:19

She was extremely pretty and had an amazing figure. She was about five foot six tall, with long dark hair that she wore up in a ponytail. Now, before I get jumped on, she was wearing next to nothing, ie lingerie and high heels. Not much was left to the imagination. Okay, well, a little bit. But as for her figure, you could tell that she was athletic and toned what I would consider an amazing figure. Anyway, she went up on stage and started to perform her routine. It was a bit clunky, as you would expect of someone who hadn't done it in front of people before, and was probably shy and a little bit overawed Actually, on second thoughts, don't believe shyness is a word that I would use to describe her.

Speaker 1: 2:59

Now, there were about five people in the club and all of them, except me, had girls with them. She finished her routine, got a round of applause well, I clapped and she rushed off stage out to the dressing rooms to get changed or dressed for her stint at trying to get some of the punters to buy a lap dance. When she came back out, she was wearing a tiny little crop top with no bra and a very, very tight pair of miniature denim shorts. Why is this important? It probably isn't, but it's how I remember it. So I was saying I was the only one of the punters who was not being fawned over. That was probably because the girls knew that I was very tight when it came to lap dances and also knew I was, with Betty, better off playing up to someone who gave them money than someone who wasn't going to, except for this time.

Speaker 1: 3:46

So young Tiffany comes up to me and sips on my lap across my legs with an arm draped around my shoulders. After all this time, I still remember her stage name. Well, I think it was her stage name. Up close, she was probably a day not probably not a day over 19. Hey, gorgeous, how come you're all on your lonesome? She asked in a playful voice. Just lucky, I guess. I replied. I could smell her perfume and it was very heady indeed.

Speaker 1: 4:12

She leaned into my chest and put her head on my shoulder, then whistled into my ear Would you like me to dance, just for you? Hmm, that is tempting, I said. But how about I buy you a drink first? Rule number one is, if you're allowed, always buy the girls. I said, but how about I buy you a drink first? Rule number one is, if you're allowed, always buy the girls a drink or two. Well, depending on how much money you have. Three, I ordered my usual, a bourbon and dry, and she ordered gin and tonic.

Speaker 1: 4:38

So your first night, I see? I said to her yes, how did you know? She asked, looking a little shocked. Well, I have been in a few times and know most of the girls and I haven't seen you before. Oh, she said you looked a little nervous. I said, did I? She replied I wasn't that nervous. I don't think I then asked the question. You should never ask. So why is such a pretty young thing like you stripping? Well, she replied I have a kid that I need to take care of, so I figured I could make some good money stripping. Besides, I enjoy being naked and I'm pretty hot, I think. Now that took me aback. She was a lot more forward than I expected, but that was to get blown out of the water too. The drinks came and again she asked me if I wanted a lap dance. Maybe I was feeling benevolent, or maybe it was because it wasn't my money, but I said OK.

Speaker 1: 5:36

Back then different clubs did different private dances in different ways. Some had a special back room that was a lot less open. Some had individual special back room that was a lot less open. Some had individual special rooms and some, like this club, were cheap and the lap dances were done in a quiet corner on the main floor. So we moved to the corner of the room and she sat me down. Now, lap dances or private dances or private shows, or whatever you want to call them, are generally no touch. Sometimes guys can touch hips or arms, but generally the girls keep touching of personal areas off limits.

Speaker 1: 6:09

The dance is designed to get you horny and that way you pay more to keep you horny, without any physical bumping of uglies, as someone once put it, that would mean very close contact with your body, the odd touch, but never full body on body contact. Some of that had to do with the laws at the time, as well as the definition of prostitution, but also public exposure and public decency laws. So, sitting down, tiffany starts dancing and it is going pretty much as expected A little teasing, a little flirting me, trying to remember I'm bi. Next thing she takes off her top. All good. I was in a strip club and I had seen a pair of breasts before once or twice in my life. In fact I'd seen about six pair of them.

Speaker 1: 6:55

That night I was sitting back feeling very mellow. Out of the corner of my eye I could see the club manager come out from the back room and stop and watch her new stripper. At the time I thought nothing of it. So Tiffany is dancing and all of a sudden she climbs on top of me, straddles me and is sitting in my lap. Okay, I thought to myself, along with dead kittens and puppies, in what I thought was an accident, she started grinding away in my lap. Didn't last long, but it certainly had a reaction. She then leans forward and puts her breasts in my lap. Didn't last long, but it certainly had a reaction. She then leans forward and puts her breasts in my face. Now you would expect her to stop just above my face, but no, she didn't. So rule number one no touching had just been broken.

Speaker 1: 7:38

I anxiously looked around for the bouncer. I had seen on numerous occasions guides thrown out for doing something stupid like that many times. I think that was a bit too close, wasn't it? I said to her. She just looked at me and smiled. It was about now. I was thinking whether they had had a chat to her about the do's and don'ts of lap dances. I could see the manager stand up a bit more upright.

Speaker 1: 8:01

Tiffany stands back up and continues to dance. Now I paid for 20 minutes and it was only about 10 minutes in as she is dancing and it really appeared like she lost herself in the music. She takes those incredibly tiny shorts off and is now standing there in a micro g-string and nothing else, dancing away oblivious to anyone else. My response was getting more and more obvious and I was shifting uncomfortably in my chair. Tiffany notices me shifting around and again jumps on me and straddles me. Okay, I said quietly, and again she looked me directly in the eyes and smiled. I could see the manager start to walk closer to us, I'm guessing, to be able to stop whatever was going to happen.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Next, tiffany grabbed both my hands and put them on her hips. Okay, I thought that is allowed. Again, she put her breasts in my face and laughed. The manager gets a bit closer. Then she starts bobbing up and down. Usually not a problem, because she shouldn't actually touch me, but in this instance she did, rather forcefully and not in a painful way. The manager starts to get even closer, and then it happened. She obviously felt she was having the desired effect. I was glad I was bi and not gay and she started grinding herself on me. I had my hands on her hips and she was going to town.

Speaker 1: 9:24

All I remember next is the manager run walking to where we were, grabbing Tiffany by the shoulder and literally pulling her off me, and in a very scolding tone she said that is not how you lap dance. You need to be very careful. You never know who you are dancing for. He could be a cop With that. She dragged Tiffany away to the back change rooms. Tiffany came back out about 30 seconds later and picked up her clothes, gave a wry smile and ran off again.

Speaker 1: 9:52

So two things happened that made me very nervous. Firstly, tiffany was enjoying that way too much, and she probably ruined her stripping career. Also, I enjoyed it way too much, and I hope that wasn't evident to anyone else in the room. That was probably as much of an issue, as it was already established that I was bi. The second one, though, was that the manager had used me and the word cop in the same sentence. That was concerning.

Speaker 1: 10:24

I sat there thinking to myself does she think I'm a copper? Does she know I'm working undercover? How much has Betty told her? She wouldn't do that, would she? I must have had a very stressed look on my face, because when Betty came back to find me, she said what's wrong, darling? The lap dance wasn't that bad, was it? No? Well, yes, but no, she was a bit full on, I replied. So I was told. She said but it appears you both enjoyed it, betty said, motioning to my lap, tried to sit more upright. Thanks for that, I said. She just laughed. You haven't told anyone who I really am, have you? I asked her Now, michael darling, why on earth would I do that? And she was right. It didn't make sense for her to do that, but still the comment sat with me and made me feel really uneasy.

Speaker 1: 11:19

A short time later, the guy Betty had gone to see Alphonse came over to the table where we were sitting. Alphonse, this is Michael, the friend I told you about, isn't he gorgeous? I just smiled a little uncomfortably. I put my hand out to shake Hi, how are you? I said Good, michael. Betty says you're interested in buying some speed. Is that right? Alphonse said matter-of-factly. Well, yeah, I guess I am. Can you give me some? I replied that shouldn't be a problem. Get my number from Betty and give me a call in a few days and we can discuss amounts and costs. Betty, he said with a nod of his head, and with that he got up, went upstairs and left. That was pretty easy. I said to Betty Darling, everything is easy when you're with me. She replied and laughed and she was right. She knew the who's who and, I'm guessing, had enough dirt on just about everybody that she got her way for the most part.

Speaker 1: 12:17

The next night we were out and I was sitting with these young guys who were out pretending they were big spenders, throwing money at the strippers. Well, not literally, but figuratively speaking. They were spending a lot, so much so that it was a little incongruous with their appearance. Now, I know you should never judge a book by its cover, but in the policing business that is where you start at a base level judging a book by its cover.

Speaker 1: 12:40

It's always amazed me that people get bent out of shape by the fact the police apparently profile or use common base stereotypes while policing. You know what I? Police only pick on black people, or police only pick on people from low socioeconomic areas, etc. Whilst in a small number of instances that's probably true. The actual truth is that police have to make split decisions based on a stereotype to know whether something is out of the ordinary and therefore may be an indication that something is just not right. The ordinary, and therefore may be an indication that something is just not right that a crime is or is about to take place. Sometimes those instincts are viewed by people who live in rose-colored glasses world as being out of date or racist or whatever ist you want it to fall under. Police always talk about gut feel. I once had a sergeant who said after a few years you'll begin to get a gut feel when you look at a situation, person or act and that gut feel will either say something is not right here or this is par for the course. Nine times out of 10, that gut feel when they say something isn't right will be correct. If you don't act on it, then you aren't doing your job as a police officer and criminals will get away unpunished. That has stood out to me ever since. So two examples One night I was working in uniform in the middle of the city.

Speaker 1: 14:03

I was standing there with my partner talking to a couple of people about something. I see this guy walking up the mall towards us. He was wearing a dirty t-shirt, had dirty track pants on, was generally unkempt and was wearing thongs. Now, nothing against both people with thongs To anyone else. He was just another homeless person. He was also carrying a big white plastic bag that was full of something and it looked heavy. Just the way he was walking, the way he was carrying the bag and the way he ever so slightly stopped when he saw us, the police, made me think something isn't right here. My gut feel was that something was off. As he came closer, his gait was also a bit lopsided, like he was limping, but no signs of an actual injury. He was carrying the bag close to the leg. He was favouring and using it to support the bag. That, again, seemed very odd, so I walked away from our conversation and said hey, mate, where are you off to Now? Anyone looking at that interaction would have seen me stop what appeared to be a homeless person.

Speaker 1: 15:03

He gave me some babble about going to find something to eat. He was clutching this bag he had with him for dear life, like it had his prized possessions in it. What's in the bag, mate? I asked him. No, no, nothing, just my things. He said. Can I have a look? I asked him. Well, yeah, why, though? He replied I don't know, mate, just seems like something isn't right. What's in the bag? I persisted. He eventually opened the bag and inside were a large number of 20 and 50 cent pieces. I'm talking a large number.

Speaker 1: 15:37

So first thought was he had smashed a parking meter. Where'd you get these from, mate? I asked oh, they're mine, I found them. He replied. Where'd you get these from, mate? I asked they're mine, I found them. He replied. And where did you find them? I asked. He looked back the way he came and pointed down the street Down there. I got on the radio and asked if there was anyone down the street and to see whether they could see a smashed parking meter. I got one. Better.

Speaker 1: 16:04

One of the crew came back and said someone had kicked in the door of a hotel and smashed a cigarette machine coin holder. Witnesses had said he had run off towards where we were. So I had a guy with a large number of coins, who was very skittish to say the least, and a cigarette machine that had been smashed and coins stolen. Coincidence, I think not smashed and coins stolen Coincidence, I think not. So gut feeling and base and behavior on stereotypes. One feel good is zero. Look, I admit it is a very fine line. But just because a police officer gets a gut feel, it doesn't mean they are racist or any. Any other kind of ist Good policing comes from developing a gut feel about a broad base of stereotypes. So I'm at the strip club and these guys are obviously out of place. So I strike up a conversation.

Speaker 1: 16:53

Gavin was about 27,. A bit of a scrawny looking guy wearing his best Kmart shirt. He had that typical Bogan haircut and his mates were the same. They were drinking beer, being very loud, and they were sitting at the stage. I got up and went over and sat down next to him. Now, the girls knew me. So when I came over, the one dancing automatically came up to me and did a bit of a dance in front of me. That was good because it got her closer to Gavin and his mates. After she left and went back up the stage, gavin turned to me and said mates. After she left and went back up the stage, gavin turned to me and said do you know her? Yeah, mate, I'm a bit of a regular. I replied you should hang with me and they'll come over. We can do that, he said eagerly.

Speaker 1: 17:39

At the end of her performance. We went back to the booth I was sitting in and Gavin and his mates joined me. Introductions were made and I told them I was Michael. Over the next few hours the girls would come and say hello, the guys would go and get their lap dances and they were spending a shitload of cash. It became quite evident, though, that they had more cash than they should have. They lived in a southern suburb of the city that was synonymous with lower socioeconomic housing and high crime, and a hotbed for drugs like chuff and speed, because, compared to H&C, they were cheap. Now they had either robbed someone or they were dealing drugs. Either way, I was on to a new target.

Speaker 1: 18:17

During the course of the night I leaned over to Gavin and said Mate, you are rather flush. Did you knock over a bank or something? He turned and looked at me, gauging me as to what he should say, laughed and said hell no, they look like they could rob a bank. I have a little business selling the go juice. I looked a bit puzzled. You mean speed, I asked. He looked at me like I was a dickhead and said what else do you think I meant? He looked at me like I was a dickhead and said what else do you think I meant, mate? Sorry, I've just never heard it called that before and I sell a fair bit of it. I replied. Now that got his interest. Again. He looked at me trying to gauge if he believed me or not.

Speaker 1: 18:59

Where do you get your gear from? He eventually asked here and there, but I'm always on the lookout for a better deal I replied when do you get your gear from? This time he was a lot more coy. How do I know you're not a cop? He asked Mate, good question. But really, look at me, do I look like a cop? And with everything that's gone on in the last few years, would I be seen dead in a strip club where I know everyone from the girls to the bar staff? If I was a cop yeah, good point, he said. And no, you don't look like a cop I would have said a fag. But you haven't come on to me yet. The night is still early, I said, laughing. As it turned out, gavin gave me his number and I said I'll be in touch to get some gear through him, at a fee, of course. I left them spending far too much money on drinks and lap dances and went back to my unit. After an eventful night, I had a lot of notes to write up and I wanted to do it before I went to sleep and the fog of the evening was imbued into my morning.

Speaker 1: 19:58

The next day. I went to see my controller and gave him an update on the evening and how I'd met up with Gavin. I handed over the phone number and left it to him to chase that up. I spent the day doing catch-up notes and we did some planning about Alphonse and what and where we were going to buy from him. It was decided that we try and get him to come to my unit and record him on the camera there.

Speaker 1: 20:18

Now, the next day, my controller had some good news. Gavin had, of course, used his real name and address when he got his phone and we were able to find him in the system. There wasn't the same paranoia back then about giving all of your details away to tech or telco companies. In fact it was very novel and they didn't actually ask for too much proof of ID anyway. Now that we knew who Gavin was, we were able to understand that he might actually have good inroads into a supplier down where he lived.

Speaker 1: 20:52

I called Gavin and set up a meeting with him for the following day. The plan was I would go down to his place and for a fee he would take me to his supplier and I would buy an ounce. That was all pretty straightforward. Oh, and I think I forgot to mention that the area that Gavin lived in was next to the policing district, to where I had been when I joined the covert squad. Now everyone already knew this and everyone agreed that there was little chance anyone would recognize me. We had no idea of who the supplier was. He had moved there after my time and I had had no interaction with Gavin or the alleged supplier during my time down there, either officially or unofficially. So I jumped in my car and headed off down to Gavin's place. I had decided first proper meet and I wouldn't wear a wire, just in case he felt a bit jittery even after his comments.

Speaker 1: 21:38

A few nights previous he lived in a townhouse block that was on the main road. His place was at the back of the property, as far away from the road as you could get Over the back fence. There was vacant land that ran all the way through to the motorway. About a kilometre away I park out on the road and walk into the complex and down to his townhouse third world. The block itself sat perpendicular to the road, which meant I had to walk past every townhouse on my way there. There were couches and mattresses strewn out of balconies, armchairs sitting in the driveway, obviously broken down into irreparable cars, sitting outside in car parking spots Just shit everywhere.

Speaker 1: 22:22

I get down to Gavin's apartment and there is a big black cross or X painted on his door, with a hole made from what looked like a screwdriver or a knife, maybe in the middle of it, and also what looked like blood. Now, if I said that wasn't unnerving I'd be lying. I walk up to the door and tentatively knock on it. Who's that? Came a yell from inside, mate, it's Mick Michael from the other night. I yelled out. I couldn't tell if it was Gavin's voice or not. I hear rustling and the door opens and Gavin is standing there with a smile on his face. You found it. He said yeah, mate, wasn't that hard. I do have a Refidex. I replied Now for those of you born after the 2000s, before we could ask Google or Siri how to get somewhere, we had a book of street maps where you could look up a street and, after flicking through a number of correlated pages, work out how to get somewhere. It was a great game to play, but kind of frustrating if the map pages didn't quite match up. I do have to admit that I am much happier when asking Google how to get somewhere.

Speaker 1: 23:27

Anyway, gavin invites me in and inside it was the same as any other place I had been to in the area Cheap carpet floors, dirty walls, a two-seater couch and two armchairs in a small lounge room with a TV on a box. The kitchen was just as dirty and there was a dining table with four chairs between the lounge and the kitchen bench, which also doubled as a breakfast bar. There was crap everywhere and he had a girlfriend who had a baby and they were standing in the kitchen. This is Mick, he said to them. I waved and he mentioned and he motioned me to sit down. As I was doing so, I had a brief glance up the stairs and said to myself Nope, don't want to know what's up there, mate, I don't want to pry, but what happened to your door? I asked quietly. Oh, you saw that. He replied yeah well, you can't really miss a big black cross on your door. I said yeah well, some shitbag I was dealing with reckoned I owed him money. He started saying I had a puppy and it was outside on the balcony. He came around whilst we weren't home and to send me a message. He painted the cross on the door and then pinned the puppy to the door with a big knife stabbed into it. I loved that puppy. I was stunned I was going to say slightly stunned, but I was actually very stunned. No way. I said yeah, happened about a month ago. He replied what the fuck have I got myself into? I thought to myself. It wasn't the guy we're going to see, was it? I asked Nah, not him, just some other dickhead. He replied.

Speaker 1: 25:03

So I found out later that Gavin had allegedly owed money some money to another dealer for some drugs. This guy had a real mean streak in him and was well known for being rather violent. He was seen at Gavin's townhouse yelling and screaming to pay him his money. When no one answered, he got a tin of spray paint he found lying around, painted the black cross or X on the front door, went back to his car, got a hunting knife and stabbed the puppy, killing it and pinning it to the front door. One of the neighbours had called the police and they showed up just as Stupid was leaving. They found the puppy, took it down and took it to the vet. It couldn't be saved, but they arrested Stupid and he ended up going to jail. Be saved. But they arrested stupid and he ended up going to jail anyway.

Speaker 1: 25:50

Right about now I was thinking this is a group of people I probably don't want to be dealing with. Gavin says to me we'll take your car and go and see dave, right, oh, and how far do we have to go? I asked yeah, not far, just the next server. He replied how much does he want for the ounce? I asked for gavin. I asked gavin 1500 and 100 for me. He answered sweet, do you want it now or is after? Okay? I asked yeah, later, it's fine. Gavin replied, and with that we walked out to my car and headed off to meet john.

Speaker 1: 26:22

Now, I rarely had the big time jitters before a buy, realistically, only that time with Tracy, when I met John and he accidentally dropped the heroin on the ground and I thought I was going to get topped. But given what I had just walked into and the level of violence these people had as a collective, I wasn't feeling the love to be doing more than one buy and wanted it to be over very, very quickly. Okay, so where are we going? I asked Gavin. He directs me to the car park of a local shopping center in the next suburb over. It was like a little strip mall and we parked off to the side. Gavin makes a quick phone call and about five minutes later a beat up old Commodore turns up and parks next to us. I had already had the conversation that I was handing over the money and taking the drugs. I knew how this worked and I didn't want to give him the chance of jumping out of the car and into John's with my money and my drugs. He was surprisingly okay with it and just went with the flow. The buy was actually very quick.

Speaker 1: 27:20

John gets out of the car and comes up to my driver's window. I guess you're Mick. He says to me Yep, and you must be John. I replied Well done, do you have the cash? I produced the money in a mixture of $150 notes all rolled up. Do you want me to count it? I asked Nah, I trust ya. Well, I trust Gavin. He knows what will happen if he was to dog me, came the reply and my gear. I asked. John produced a clip seal bag that had a whitish, pinkish powder in it. An ounce, just like you ordered, john said. As he was handing it over. He said I probably wouldn't jump on it. Yeah, good to know. I said. I handed over the cash, took what I assumed was the speed and it was according to the field test my controller did later and John went back to his car. As he was getting in he yelled give him my number, gav. And with that he drove off.

Speaker 1: 28:15

I took Gavin back to his hellhole of a townhouse, dropped him at the front of the driveway, gave him his money and said I'll be in touch, never called him again. They were just a bit too low level for what we were aiming for. Later that night Betty called and asked if I was going to meet Alphonse. I said I'd give her a call back. I called my controller and we discussed the deal. When I rang Betty back, I said yep, I'd, I'd I would meet him and I'd buy half an ounce to start with, just to see if my customers liked it. Betty called back and told me that Alphonse wanted me to call him and gave me his number. She also said the brothers, yakov and Bogdan, had asked about me and whether I wanted to do a deal with them. I asked her to set up another meeting with them, this time somewhere other than her flat, and that is all we have time for on today's episode.

Speaker 1: 29:06

I hope you're enjoying my recollections of my time working undercover. Join me next week and find out how I nearly stuffed up a videotape deal and thought I was going to blow it, and whether I ended up dealing with the not-gay brothers again. Thank you for listening to Whisper in the Shadows my true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. In the next one we'll explore more exciting stories from my operations. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're an ex-COVID operative or undercover police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences. Or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next time.