Whisper in the Shadows
Welcome to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’, your gateway into the nerve-wracking work of undercover policing. The true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I’m Michael Bates, an ex-undercover police officer, and this was my reality for over two years. If your fascinated by the truth that lies beneath crime shows, if you hunger for the real-life stories that leap beyond the boundaries of fiction, ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ is here to satisfy your curiosity. From infiltrating drug syndicates to living a double life, every episode uncovers a thrilling true story that pitted me against the face of danger. Don’t miss out on the chance to step into my shoes and experience what it takes to walk the thin line between law and crime. Subscribe to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ and join me, as we delve into the gritty world of undercover policing.
Whisper in the Shadows
Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Conversation - Episode 4 with Garth Kirkwood - Part 1
What drives someone to leave their childhood dream of working with computers behind to pursue a high-stakes career in law enforcement? Join us on "Behind the Thin Blue Line" as we sit down with Garth Kirkwood, a former Queensland police officer and undercover agent who now serves as a firefighter. Garth shares his compelling journey, from overcoming childhood bullying to his motivations for joining the police force, and the unexpected twists that led him there. His unique perspective sheds light on the often unseen camaraderie and rivalry between police officers and firefighters, revealing a shared commitment to community service that transcends professional boundaries.
Garth takes us through the rigorous process of police training and his early career's defining moments. From cleaning up after devastating floods in Charters Towers to dealing with personal hardships like gastroenteritis, Garth's resilience and adaptability stand out. He recounts his first postings in Maryborough and Harvey Bay and his unexpected foray into undercover work. These experiences not only honed his skills but also shaped his passion for law enforcement, preparing him for the challenges and complexities of life as an undercover agent.
In one of the most gripping parts of the episode, Garth opens up about his undercover assignments, including a memorable operation involving stolen bikes. He discusses the psychological and emotional toll of undercover work, the importance of keeping a light-hearted demeanor, and the profound impact on personal relationships. Transitioning back to uniformed duty presented its own set of challenges, from managing personal relationships to dealing with the stress of re-integration. Garth's candid reflections provide a raw and authentic look at the human side of law enforcement, highlighting the dedication and sacrifices made by those who serve to protect our communities.
During this episode Garth talks about Trojans Trek. More information can be found here - https://trojanstrek.com/
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Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in the Shadows podcast.
Speaker 1:In each city, in every neighbourhood, on every street they stand tall, those in blue guardians of our community, our protectors. But who are they really? Behind the Thin Blue Line is the podcast that takes you behind the badge, beyond the headlines, and into the hearts of those who serve and protect. We're here to break down barriers and to tear down the walls of misunderstanding. We're here to listen to their stories, their triumphs, their fears. Ever wonder what it's like serving undercover, or what's the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma? Listen as we step into the shoes of those who walk the thin blue line. You have heard my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop. I want to give a voice to all those living amongst us, unseen and unnoticed, who have put their life on the line being a police officer, hopefully to give you, the listener, a glint into something you will likely never get to experience Uncover the complex world of law enforcement and the raw human experiences behind the badge. Join me Jason Somerville, your host and a former police officer myself, as we navigate through these stories on Behind the Thin Blue Line. Let's go and meet our next guest line. Let's go and meet our next guest.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line a Whisper in the Shadows podcast, where I explore the human side of policing and law enforcement. I hope you're enjoying our conversations with former and current officers, where we delve into the complexity of policing and how it affects the human side of a police officer as a person. I'm Jason Somerville and I was a Queensland police officer for nearly 14 years, as well as an undercover cop for two of those years. You'll have been listening to my stories of my time working undercover through my alter ego, michael Bates. Well, I've decided it is time we heard from other cops and let them tell their stories. Today I'm chatting with Garth Kirkwood, who is a former police officer and also a former undercover officer based in Queensland. Good afternoon, garth. How are you, mate?
Speaker 2:Wonderful Jason, Thanks for having me online.
Speaker 1:Mate, thanks for agreeing to join the podcast and agreeing to have a chat about both your general policing and your undercover policing experiences. Usually, I start this with asking you to give us a brief overview of what you currently do and where you currently do it, if that's okay.
Speaker 2:Mate, I left the police many years ago and now I'm a firefighter. These days, as you probably well know, there's a bit of a rivalry between the police and the fireys and that sort of stuff, and I love my job, it's, you know. Hopefully we'll talk about it later, but what I wanted to do growing up is that I want to help people, and I get to do that every day at my job and sleep most nights and lift heavy weights.
Speaker 1:Is that right?
Speaker 2:well, look at me, I'm not looking at those heavy weights, but that's the, that's, uh, the general consensus of what the coppers think of us.
Speaker 1:yes, yeah, the stereotype, that's right, All right. So going back to, I guess, what you just said there what did you want to be when you were a kid, and why?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like as I said now, I love helping people and growing up I didn't have a lot of friends, so helping people was a way for me to connect to people and, the thing is, without the social pressures of, you know, having to know what to say and all that sort of stuff. So I loved helping people, I played sport and that sort of stuff and those little things. So when I got towards high school and that sort of stuff, you know I love computers and technology and stuff like that and so, but I couldn't see a career in that at that time because of yeah, back in the 80s, as you know, technology wasn't really there was no Apple Bill 1.20 Well, no, not that exactly.
Speaker 2:You know, I still remember my first computer little program I wrote when I was in primary school but that was, yeah, that was doing. But my mother, my mother was a postal manager for Australia Post and she worked for Australia Post for many, many years, Yep, and she got me a summer job helping sorting mail and that sort of stuff, which is part of what a postman did. So the thing is I did that and I was actually pretty good at it because of the way my brain works, you know, with those patterns and all that sort of stuff. So a mate of mine was also a policeman at the time, a very close friend. He was in mobile patrols, I think at the time, and you hear some of the stories he was telling you about and you were around that time, so you know what mobile patrols were doing at that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, you know you're around that time, so you know what my old patrols were doing at that time. So, yeah, yeah, yep. So I thought, oh, we are pleasing. You know, I was bullied a little bit at school and that sort of stuff, and I was never very confident. That's what stuff. So I thought, well, how can I get back at the bullies and all that sort of stuff? I thought that's the power, the power. But but it was more about wanting to help people and I remember in my application I actually wrote that. So you know, I'd love to help people. And uh, and the thing was I got through to the uh, the police academy as a cadet back then and yeah, and if I hadn't gotten that, the guy from the post office offered me a job, so so I'd be wearing a blue uniform at the time, whether it was police or posting.
Speaker 1:So I was just I just about to say it would have been a blue uniform either way. In regards to the bullies, because that's a, you know something that I suffer from as well, and I make mention of it in one of my um, yes, uh stories. Um, did you ever come across anyone that you that had bullied you when, uh, when you were a police officer?
Speaker 2:it's well, there's a, there's a funny story like playing football in the local community, that sort of stuff. You got to know people and that's the stuff. I wouldn't call him a bully that this guy bullied, but he he was a rep football player so he had that arrogance and air about him and I remember, uh, I was that, uh, the group of these football blokes had come to my area. They were going to a concert at the local pub and I was working that night and I saw this guy. I saw the guy so I pulled up and I was working at the time. I said, oh, get a guy, see who's going. Yeah, good, good, good, down this little alleyway. There was a guy taking a leak in the alleyway, yep, and I've just gone've just gone. What are you doing?
Speaker 2:and he's turned around and seen the copper and the cop car, oh yeah, and he's um, yeah, oh, and he's walked out and seen this man, oh yeah, everyone got a great laugh of it all his mates did and that sort of stuff. But but afterwards it was that sort of thing that made me feel good about being a copper, in the sense that he was this person that was arrogant as all hell you know, but I was able to have a joke with him. But the thing is, and yeah, sort of bringing down a few pegs, sort of thing yep, yeah, no, that that's fair enough.
Speaker 1:Um, something else you, something else you touched on was that in your application you wrote that you wanted to help people. That's right. Was that questioned when you, when you went through the interview process and I'll come to how, how that worked, but yeah, were you questioned about that? Or did they make any comment around that from you, gotta?
Speaker 2:admit, this is yeah many, many years ago. So yeah I haven't done them, haven't done the math recently um they did I do 35, but let's not go there yeah, yeah, they did mention, they did say something about that sort of stuff and that they thought it was a great way of wanting to do that, uh, of coming in policing for that. So I'd actually quite enjoyed that part of it.
Speaker 1:From where I report so talk to me about the whole process. Um, I've I've spoken about the process that that I went through and you know interviews and academy and and all that sort of stuff. What, uh, mine was a bit different because, uh, as we were talking about prior to starting um, I was part of the first 400 um of the, the, the new era um, so we had a completely different process to those that came before us. So talk through the process from when you applied to actually first day on the job, not on the job, first day at the academy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, to get to that first day, obviously there was the written up, there was the application process and stuff like that, because I was applying as what was called the cadet back in those days. So what you could do, you could leave high school and go straight into the police service, and at the time I applied it was an 18-month course with a minimum of 12 months living.
Speaker 1:So did you leave? Did you finish grade 12 or did you?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I did finish grade 12 and go through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that was the process. I got to to you speak to some of the older boys back in those days and, yeah, they went and did 11 and 12, I think. Keith, I think, mentioned it and he's in his 11 12 yeah, yeah, yeah, so with with my cohort, though.
Speaker 2:no, we finished grade 12 and then uh did, did the, uh, the academy's thing. Yeah, you did your application. You had to. There was a couple of written tests, and the only one I can remember is the essay, which is the one where I write about wanting to help people, so, and then they had the interview and so on and so forth, and they asked you, like, what do you think your TE score is going to be? And all that sort of stuff. And you know, I, eight, high sevens, low eights, you know. You know, for those didn't know, 990 was the top at that at that time I ended up getting like just above average 735. So so, yeah, I wasn't a great student, but but the thing was, yeah, so that's how I got to the academy, uh, got in there and that sort of stuff, and there was four cadet groups of 25 students each, all male I think we were, yeah, we were all male at that stage. So no females in any of our groups.
Speaker 1:So you did 18 months, and 12 months was live-in. The first 12 months was live-in. Well, that was what I applied for, right, okay?
Speaker 2:That's what I applied for. Yeah, so it actually changed part way through, so not long. I don't remember exactly when it changed over, but they changed it to like a 10 month program because they wanted to get us out by christmas because we were starting yeah, so I wanted to see up by christmas, so so instead of pushing it through, so what they did?
Speaker 2:they actually use, uh, like the probationary course. So instead of having X amount of months for our study, that they sort of compressed it up a bit, and that's what I think. So in the middle of that, there was the floods at Charleville, so we actually spent I think it was one or two I can't remember the exact time and whether it was one or two weeks at Charleville helping clean up for the floods.
Speaker 1:So that would have been.
Speaker 2:No, Charters Towers, I think it was. Yeah, no, I think it was Charters Towers. Sorry, my apologies, they all start with C. Geography is not my strong point, but Charters Towers it was yeah, so we went out and.
Speaker 1:Country Queensland.
Speaker 2:Country, Queensland. Yeah, yeah, so we went out there and the floods were really bad and so we went and cleaned the hospitals and all that sort of stuff and we lived in tents out there. It was funny they had the prisoners out there too, the very low security ones, and we actually played a touch football game against them for the public and all that sort of stuff and being cheered to the town and all that sort of thing. So I got gastroenteritis and got flown home.
Speaker 1:so that was a great time for me, you would have been living back at the Academy by yourself then were you.
Speaker 2:I did get back there by myself, yeah, but there was only a couple of days left in our trip anyway. But yeah, so the thing is. So they sort of shortened our course a bit because I wanted to see it by Christmas. There was a couple of us that couldn't go because they hadn't quite reached 18 years old. So it was quite funny. I remember looking at my graduation photo and here I am with my cadet hat and the uniform on and acne all over my face and it's just like, wow, you know Well, look, I was 21 when I got sworn in, but I was still young.
Speaker 1:I look at my photo at that age with me and my dad and it's like, oh, my God, you were such a kid. Yes, it's unbelievable, yeah, so where was your first posting?
Speaker 2:Well, I put in for three towns and I got none of them. So I ended up at Maryborough, far enough. I knew nothing of the town, not a thing.
Speaker 1:Did you want a country posting or did you want a city posting?
Speaker 2:No, no, I had put in for Bundaberg, redcliffe. I can't remember my third preference, yeah, and I, yeah, and ended up at marabara. Um, yeah, I was a single guy, 18 years old, so fortunately I think my art from up that way, uh, knew someone, so I moved in with the bike and that sort of stuff and, you know, joined the local footy team and those sort of things. But I didn't last very long there. I ended up, as you know, for the first year you go through the different areas and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I ended up at Harvey Bay and that was great. That was a very good learning curve. I worked with a copper there who I ran into many years later in my firefighting role and he's now a senior sergeant and working with him back then you thought, no, he would never make a good boss. But he got there and he's a great bloke. He's a top bloke, don't get me wrong. But yeah, and he's the sort of boss that you would want, but yeah, so no, that was a great experience. And then, yeah, that's sort of funny enough that Harvey Bay is where I found out about UC Work.
Speaker 1:So, and that leads nicely into my next question, which is how did you get into UC Work? Was it something you wanted to do, or did you just fall into it, or how did that all eventuate?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a funny story in the sense of my first job, which I'll get into shortly. But I had no idea what it was, never heard of it. I had no concept of what it was. What the job was is that one of the local coppers. He'd put a couple of his kids' pushbites into the local charity shop to be sold and the thing was that the charity shop got knocked off and the town of Harvey Bay back then was a lot, lot smaller than what it is now.
Speaker 1:Oh, it wouldn't have been that big yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a lot smaller. So the thing was so what he did the day we found out. He went round to all the schools to try and look at all the bike racks, to try and find bikes, and he found it at one of the local high schools and the two bikes were chained together. So I thought and I was working that day and I lived across the road from work, so that was fantastic, the community was awesome. So they said to me go home, get changed and clothes, and then what they want me to do is they want me to stand, stand outside the school, so when the kids come and get the bikes, you sort of go and get the kids, wave us down and we'll come down and grab them. Yeah, okay, that's pretty cool, awesome.
Speaker 1:So I went home and put on wasn't like this, but it was, yeah you still would, yeah, you still would have been you know 19 or 20, then wouldn't you.
Speaker 2:I was still yeah, I was 19. No, I was still. I hope you made that would have been. No, I was still yeah. I would have just yeah around just over 19. I was at the time.
Speaker 1:So you probably would have looked like a school kid anyway.
Speaker 2:I did and that's why they picked me. Yeah, because you look at the time. So you probably would have looked like a school kid anyway I did and that's why they picked me. Yeah, because you look at the other coppers there, most of them were obviously in their early 40s or probably 50s. Being as small, sleepy town as it was, I was a kid compared to them. So anyway, I stood there and the school bell rings and no one sort of come up to me and that sort of stuff. Back in those days it was a lot easier to stand out in front of schools when we had too many troubles. The kids come and got their bikes and I had my badge sort of tucked in. I said, hey, boys, we've worked here, get us to come and stand over here. I waved the cars and they'd come charging down. Long story short, they picked up these two fellas who'd knocked off the charity shop and they actually picked them up for about eight break and enters across the whole area.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and they were high school kids.
Speaker 2:No, high school kids, yeah, just young high school kids too. From memory I think, I think they were only like 14 or something like that from memory. But how that got me into UC work was there was a guy from the dog squad that was a part of this little operation that we had. He said, oh, you ever thought of undercover work? I said, what's that? And he sort of told me, yeah, it sounds pretty cool. So, yeah, I looked into it a bit more and applied for the course and did the course the next year did the course the next year.
Speaker 1:So now I go into a little bit of the course on my, in my, in my um other podcast, uh, on the other series, just briefly and and you've listened to that same, similar sort of thing, or had it had, mine sort of, because I think I was a group, uh, a group two or three after you, wasn't yeah, well, I was number three.
Speaker 2:I think my course was number three, I think, of the course they had developed.
Speaker 1:I don't know if they still had numbers for yours when they got to the, when they got to yours, I can't remember it was too long ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is the only reason I remember, because we had we got shirts at the time, so well, so do we, so do we, but I?
Speaker 1:I that shirt got thrown out long ago. It's been 30 years since I did it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the thing was it was a three-week course, it was at a police establishment, but it wasn't. It was a police college, but it wasn't Like they used it for officer development and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:So it wasn't, so it wasn't at the academy. No development, all that sort of stuff, so it wasn't. So wasn't that the academy? No, no, no.
Speaker 2:Chelmer, I don't think the building's there anymore, yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't think it is either.
Speaker 2:No, so the thing is, but we did a lot in the local areas and stuff like that as well, out in the public, yeah, doing things and stuff like that. And it's funny. There's two distinct things I remember from the course. I remember I think it's the same with yourself, you do a psychological profile before you go in and all that sort of stuff. And they had this talk to me at the end of it and they said, oh, you know, looking at your profile, it looks like you're worried about your health. I said, oh yeah, great, yeah, thanks. I didn't know at the time I was 19, I was nuts there what he meant by that. A little older now I understand what it was about. But um, but the other thing I remember is after my sister said my past and that sort of stuff and that they said two things. They said they're either gonna think you're an idiot or a clown. But oh thanks, either one works yeah did you embrace either of those?
Speaker 2:well, the thing is I I try to live that way with people and, as you can see from my outfit, I I I try to make people. I try and make people smile while I can and like like wearing these outfits, for example, people, uh, engage with me. I have no like wearing these outfits. For example, people are engaged with me. I have no clue who they are Like. For example, last night me and my mate were out just at a local brew house. People said oh, I love your outfit, mate, it's awesome and that's part of the reason I do it and I think that's gone with me through my life. Even though everything I've been through that external persona of trying to make other people smile, I still try to live to that.
Speaker 1:And that's fair enough. I guess it was more the fact. So one of the fellas I went through who I'm good mates with or was good mates with, have been out of the job, but we catch up every now and then. Everyone thought he was simple. So he played to that. Yeah, yeah, he's not, he's a very intelligent fella, but he played up to that, okay. So what was the most difficult part of being at UC for you, and how long did you do it for?
Speaker 2:I did the two years similar to yourself, because I think that was that decision. That two years was about the right sort of time. There was one that had done more time, but he was a bit older and a bit wiser than what I was. But the thing was the hardest part about it is being who you are, in the sense that you live this life of this other person. You know you've said in your podcast how you're interested in acting and stuff like that. I had that. I had a little bit of that when I do the musicals in high school and stuff like that, bill 1.10, and sometimes my life sucks. So I love being someone else.
Speaker 2:So the hardest part was knowing what you could tell people when you could like. When I first got the job in UC, I moved back to Brisbane and moved in with my then girlfriend, bill 1.10, and the thing is it was hard to say Well, what do I tell her? What do I don't tell her? You know, what can I tell my parents? What can I tell my parents? You know those sorts of things. That was probably the hardest part, you know.
Speaker 1:What did you tell them?
Speaker 2:Yep, sorry. Well, the funny thing is I didn't tell my parents much to start with and that changed.
Speaker 2:And when we get to that story I'll I'll explain why that's the case okay yeah, but the thing is with with my girlfriend, um, I I probably didn't let her in as much as a robin roddard should and and that was on me. You know I was still I was only 20 at the time, so I was still young and ignorant that sort of stuff. And here I am playing with the big boys sort of thing and, you know, getting to be this big, cool undercover copper. You know, growing my hair out, getting a beard. You know People think I was 30. Hey, really, I actually had one of my targets say to me oh man, you look a bit 30. Yeah, thanks, mate, I didn't tell you how old I really was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fair enough. What's a common myth about being an undercover cop, do you think? The biggest one? I think, and you've touched on it quite a lot is the glamour.
Speaker 2:Like there was other guys doing jobs that were down the Gold Coast and stuff like that. I didn't do any jobs myself down that way.
Speaker 2:I mean neither, really no yeah, and I've heard Keith's stories a few times, not only in your interview but in other ways and stuff like that. But I actually did go down because I had a controller that was doing one of my jobs and he was also controlling one down the coast as well. Then I'd go and see him down there and the thing is, even that wasn't glamorous. It's all hard work. Sure, there's no forms to fill in and stuff like that, but there's so much paperwork and your notes, all that other stuff, all the accounting's. No forms to fill in and stuff like that, but there's so much paperwork You've got to do your notes. Yeah, you have all that other stuff, all the accounting you've got to do. Yes, every dollar you spend, you've still got to account for it and all that sort of stuff. The thing is you can't get receipts full, but you've still got to account for where you spent it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the old beer coaster. I did this there you go in the pot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it so what's something surprising you learnt about yourself doing undercover. It's funny, but it took me a lot, a lot of time to appreciate the skills and talents I learned doing the job. Like you know, when you, when you come out I haven't got to the part where you've come out yet from your podcast yet, but but coming out from from covert back into the general policing, that's the stuff. Yeah, oh, you're only covered here Big deal. So what wasn't too many years later to appreciate the memory exercises that are good? My memory can actually be Bill 1.21.
Speaker 1:Even after a few drinks.
Speaker 2:Bill 1.22, yeah, and other things, but the thing is, yeah, so having that memory, you know, your attention to detail, you know, like when you, when you walk into a room like I a fireman now but you're looking at the exits when you walk into a room, you know it's things like that.
Speaker 2:But the other big skill that I have because I dealt with a lot of, I'll say, multicultural people in my undercover days, learning to talk to them as in you know, obviously there's a lot of language barriers and stuff like that Be friendly with them and all that sort of stuff. So being able to do that in various situations and stuff like that. But also pressure, you know, you hear about the story in Keith's book, about, you know, he had a shotgun sort of held to him, that sort of stuff, and I thought, well, yeah, I was fortunate never to have that situation, but you're going for a job interview. I think why am I so stressed about this? You know I've done this. All this other stuff. You know these are people I know and you know yeah, it can put some things into perspective.
Speaker 1:I guess in in in that respect, yeah, um, it's quite funny talking about coming out and right, I right, I haven't got there yet and I don't want to spoil my future episode. I guess when you came out, did you go straight back into uniform and was it regional or local?
Speaker 2:Fortunately it was sort of local to my local area, in the sense I don't want to mention the station, but because the boss I had was an absolute twat. He loved telling a story, but he was absolutely useless to me because in my last year of COVID I was actually saying to the management and that sort of stuff I'm going to struggle going from doing this job straight back in uniform because there was no transition, no, nothing, as I used to say. The story was one day the guys want to have a beer with you. The next day you've had a shave and a haircut and they want to punch you in the face. Yeah, and that's how it was. That's how it was Like I had meetings with BCI.
Speaker 2:It was like the intelligence unit in at headquarters at the time, um, because I did have, I did have some technical skills and stuff like that I, um, they did have a position for me. But the thing is, because it wasn't a proper position and hadn't been advertised and all that sort of stuff, my, the boss of the use of the boss of covert, said no, no, you've got to go back to uniform, you've got to go back and and I think that was one of the things that came out of previous uh iterations was that you needed to go back into uniform to be a police officer again yeah and that, yeah, and, and they thought that, that you know that clean break and know, admittedly, the process we went through to go back was different.
Speaker 1:We had psychologists who you had sat down and had a chat with and that sort of stuff. So there was a little bit more than when you went through, but it was still. You finish up this day. I think I had a week off and then bang in uniform with my hair cut, you know, or actually my hair grown no beard, no nose ring, no earring, um, you know, in a shiny blue uniform that was a size too small. Yeah, spent far too much time on these things than exercising. Um, and look, rightly or wrongly, when you went through, it wasn't as sophisticated as when I went through, and it still wasn't great, and it's only you know. I think they recognise them. Let's face it, the one thing about police forces is that they're very, very slow at recognising and embracing change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's all government departments. I don't think it's just reserved to the police.
Speaker 1:No, you're probably. Yeah, probably true. Probably true. How much longer did you stay in the police after you came out of the UC stuff?
Speaker 2:Well, I suppose it was fortunate that the station I went to I had a guy I actually went through the academy with, so he was really great, that sort of stuff, lovely bloke. But I was still, because that was when they put the shift roster in and you'd have to pay and all that stuff. I can't remember the exact terms I was using for it, but I only lasted about eight months there and then I got a job in the intelligence and and then I got a job in the intelligence and training, yep. So and the thing was I wasn't big on shift work at the time because I was still. I was struggling mentally and that sort of stuff, not to the extent. That happened much later. But yeah, I just needed some routine and that sort of stuff. And obviously, as you know, as a police officer, your roster changes. You know, talking to some cop, was there?
Speaker 2:roster doesn come out, you know, no, no, it's seven or eight days ahead sort of thing, sometimes yeah and um, and back then that was about the same for us. So, um, so I got a job in intelligence and training and that was pretty. That wasn't too bad because I started working technology and stuff like that. You know, I was using computer programs and it's something I had niche for. Um, and I've got to train people and I'm good at talking to people and training, so but the thing was, is that again the senior sergeant? He then when he needed someone for like the comms room? Because back in those days we did the comms room um, yeah he said I need you for the comms room.
Speaker 2:I thought really. There you go.
Speaker 1:I have to talk to people. Come on, that's it, yeah.
Speaker 2:I have to do my job that I'm trained for. Yeah, I have to answer the phone. Yeah, so the thing is. But so from there on, throughout the rest of my career, whilst I was a uniformed officer, I actually never went back into general duties after that. Okay fair enough, yeah, and I lasted another five years or so just over five years afterwards.
Speaker 1:I'll come back to that because there's a couple of other things I want to explore about the UC work. What was the most interesting job you did?
Speaker 2:Most interesting job. Like, the most interesting job I did was, as we've established, I was pretty young and that sort of stuff. I even looked younger. Even with the beard I looked a bit older. But the thing is I still didn't have that maturity that some of the other guys did and that sort of stuff and that was fine.
Speaker 2:But I, um, I was placed into this, uh, so it's a mining town for lack of a better term back in the day, and it put me up in a cave in the um. The informant didn't even live in town anymore. He moved out, but the thing is there was only two people in town who knew who I was, who's my controller who, who lived in a unit in town and the detective who arranged the op. Anyway, the informant come in, introduced me to just one of the low level guys in town who's sort of a bit of a, at the time a sporting celebrity in the town who'd lived in the same, just happened to live in the same caravan park that I did. And yeah, and we took the Sporting celebrity living in a caravan park.
Speaker 1:That's yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, it was the 90s, you know, it's a small town, anyway. So the thing was it was for a marijuana job. So the thing is the job was to get to the people who were bringing the marijuana into town and they knew it was coming from the next major city through the through. This one guy not not the guy that I was introduced to, anyway, they introduced this guy. You know, we hung out, we drunk beers, you know watching play sport, all that sort of stuff, uh. And then I got to meet one of the targets of the operation, who was the boss in the town buying off him and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:Funny thing is I was hanging out with a couple of the guys and they said let's go score. I said I'll drive. So I dropped because I knew, because I'd be buying off this guy anyway. So I ran into his place and they did the deal right in front of me. That's the stuff that I've just thought. This is fantastic evidence, this is awesome and anyway, yeah, and so the thing is it was only about a three or four month open that stuff. And the last one was it was not quite a buy bust, it was what it was. It was a large deal, so I think I bought half a pound. Yeah, I was trying to.
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, that's what, that's what I was trying to buy half a pound. So what I did? I met, I met my guy from the, from the town, and we met the main supplier from the big smoke anyway. So we met in this car park and all this sort of thing and I, you know, we did the barter thing and that sort of stuff. He said, no, no, no, I want this much. I said, fine, this is what I've got. Can't believe. It Said, oh, I'm going to take an ounce out. Yeah, whatever, mate, this is what I got, anyway. So they all picked up the next day and stuff like that. That was hilarious because I listened to just one of your episodes recently where the targets now that the guys being interviewed saying, oh, I've never met him, never met Garth at all, who's he? So in the interview get out, mate, here you go. Yes, yesterday we did this, this and this and that was it.
Speaker 1:He just he just shut up Bill 1.01.04.
Speaker 2:he had nothing after that so that was probably the biggest one was because they followed the guy after we did that deal that afternoon and he'd taken the money to the local casino and was putting it through there. So they were able to establish where he was putting the money and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I don't think I was very popular in that town after that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was cleaning it, so I don't think I was very popular in that town afterwards because obviously I stopped the marijuana supply to that whole town. That was probably my biggest and best job, yeah.
Speaker 1:How many jobs did you do?
Speaker 2:Well, this is the thing Since you've asked me to come onto this show, I've been thinking about that, and I've been thinking about it for a few years, because I was in there for two years and my memory, as we've discussed in the final is my memory is not that great. At those times, I remember my very first job, which I want to tell the story of. I've got to tell the story of.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I did that job I just mentioned. That was towards the end of my first year, then the second year. I've just done a few sporadic jobs and I don't remember the specific details. I remember one I was buying heroin from a Vietnamese person. It was again similar to what you say, luke. I guess I drive to the car park, I go up and talk to them and no, they wouldn't give me the money, they wouldn't give me the gear. I'd have to give them money, then follow them in their car and they'd throw the gear out the window. Then you'd have to pull up and try and find it. And they're throwing it on the side of the road in front of a school. And just think really.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's a school day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's amazing how their mind works. All right, so I, I, I was gonna I get you to tell some stories, but we might as well jump in there, but just before we do, one of the things you mentioned was, obviously, I use the, the, the, uh, my alter ego, michael bates, yep, um, or different forms of that. You were saying you didn't have that much of a unique name.
Speaker 2:No, I wasn't very imaginative. And the thing is, this is one of the things that surprised me when I first started, if you don't mind me taking a step back a little bit is that when I first started we had a barbecue and the bosses got all the current UCs together and all the new ones coming into the squad and we have a barbecue and have a chat and that sort of stuff and that sort of stuff. And then afterwards the boys would say come on, we'll go tell you how it really works. And that was great. That was fantastic because you understood the job a bit more.
Speaker 2:But I didn't understand and this is my brain it didn't understand actually how to do the job itself, as in, how do you talk to people. You know, because I remember I actually do remember one of the jobs I got sent on. I didn't have an informant because the informant had left town. But they want to be going to this pub and meet people and talk to people and try and get into the scene and all that sort of stuff for them. I have no clue what the freak I'm doing, you know like did.
Speaker 1:Did that? Did it work, or did it raise red flags or no?
Speaker 2:I I can't remember how long that job lasted. It didn't last very long and it didn't sort of go anywhere. I, I'll be honest, my memories that bad. I think I made like two or three buys at the most. I cost that, you know. I think it was like made like two or three buys at the most. I think it was like one, maybe two months at last at the most. I can't remember exactly. But without any intro, we didn't have any targets to who I was actually targeting and it was really confusing. So, whereas, like me personally, I would have liked to have gone on, I think that the thought at the time was they don't want to expose other converts to targets, so they, they keep you separate. So the thing so the thing is my thing is you know how best to learn the job? By actually doing it with someone.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and that's that was sort of something that keith raised in his yeah, in his stuff was that that was how the training was before they had the course, was that you would go out with someone else and learn the ropes, so to speak. So the job you were talking about, where that you wanted to tell the story about.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I just love this story. No, no that's okay. And it goes back to the reason. After this I told my parents where I was going, because what happened was I got this job where I was going to an island resort, okay, so what the management were worried about, that'd be tough. Yeah, it was a real hard sell, I can tell you.
Speaker 1:All right, we'll leave part one of my interview with Garth Kirkwood there. Part two is right next door, so make sure you grab that and have a listen and find out about his job on his luxury holiday island. Thank you for joining me on Behind the Thin Blue Line, where I have conversations with current and former police officers and they get to tell their stories. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. In the next episode, we'll again explore the human side of policing through more conversations with police officers from around the world. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're a current or former police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next week.
