Whisper in the Shadows
Welcome to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’, your gateway into the nerve-wracking work of undercover policing. The true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I’m Michael Bates, an ex-undercover police officer, and this was my reality for over two years. If your fascinated by the truth that lies beneath crime shows, if you hunger for the real-life stories that leap beyond the boundaries of fiction, ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ is here to satisfy your curiosity. From infiltrating drug syndicates to living a double life, every episode uncovers a thrilling true story that pitted me against the face of danger. Don’t miss out on the chance to step into my shoes and experience what it takes to walk the thin line between law and crime. Subscribe to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ and join me, as we delve into the gritty world of undercover policing.
Whisper in the Shadows
Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Conversation - Episode 4 with Garth Kirkwood - Part 2
What happens when an undercover cop's meticulously crafted facade comes crashing down? Join us on Behind the Thin Blue Line as Garth Kirkwood shares a gripping tale from his assignment at a luxury island resort. Garth recounts the tension-filled moments when his cover was almost blown by a former acquaintance. This episode sheds light on the intricate challenges and high stakes of undercover work, revealing how even the best-laid plans can be undone by human connections.
But the journey doesn't end there. We transition into the emotional terrain of mental health in law enforcement, exploring the profound impact of PTSD on veterans and first responders. With insights from organizations like Trojans Trek, we delve into the therapeutic retreats that aid in the transition from policing to new careers in IT and firefighting. The discussion highlights the emotional toll of frontline service and underscores the importance of resilience, effective leadership, and positive reinforcement in fostering a supportive environment.
As the conversation broadens, we touch upon the significance of community and support systems in building resilience and personal growth. Early connections through sports and camaraderie in professional settings have played crucial roles in mental well-being, particularly for those in emergency services. We also discuss the evolving dynamics of support within these professions, emphasizing the critical role of peer support officers. Tune in for a heartfelt exploration of the human stories behind the badge, as we underline the importance of understanding and addressing mental health to navigate the complexities of demanding careers.
During this episode Garth talks about Trojans Trek. More information can be found here - https://trojanstrek.com/
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Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in the Shadows podcast. In each city, in every neighbourhood, on every street they stand tall, those in blue guardians of our community, our protectors. But who are they really? Behind the Thin Blue Line is the podcast that takes you behind the badge, beyond the headlines, and into the hearts of those who serve and protect. We're here to break down barriers and to tear down the walls of misunderstanding. We're here to listen to their stories, their triumphs, their fears. Ever wonder what it's like serving undercover, or what's the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma? Listen as we step into the shoes of those who walk the thin blue line. You have heard my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop. I want to give a voice to all those living amongst us, unseen and unnoticed, who have put their life on the line being a police officer, hopefully to give you, the listener, a glint into something you will likely never get to experience Uncover the complex world of law enforcement and the raw human experiences behind the badge. Join me Jason Somerville, your host and a former police officer myself, as we navigate through these stories on Behind the Thin Blue Line. Let's go and meet our next guest.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to part two of my interview with Garth Kirkwood. Listen in now as he recounts his job on the luxury holiday island. I got this job where I was going to an island resort, okay. So what the management were worried about? Yeah, it was a real hard, hard sell. I can tell you I was going there just to do a genitalia walk clean around the pools and all that sort of stuff. What they were.
Speaker 2:They put me in the room with the target, they suspect, was bringing marijuana and stuff into the staff. So only person you knew I was was the manager. Anyway, I've got to the island and sitting in his office and that's the stuff, is it? Oh, you know, is that we've got you with this guy and all those sorts of things? I said, okay, great, you know, what do you want me to do now? I started, then took me for a tour anyway.
Speaker 2:So, but those days the island resort, it had a like a sporting hub where you go get your flippers and all your yeah, yeah, beach volleyball, all that stuff. Anyway, we're walking into this, walking into this area, and again I've got I think I've got a goby at that time and sort of a long hair and that stuff, and I'm using Garth and a fake last name. Now walk in. The manager says this is such and such and this guy behind the camera says garthy and he starts to call out my last name and I said and I call out his name over the top of my last name, trying to drown out my last name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, this guy was the best mate of my brother in high school. Our families had known each other for about a good 15 years because we'd all grown up in the local football club. Anyway, I said, oh no. He said, mate, I'll catch up with you later. I'll talk to you later, anyway, oh no.
Speaker 1:So he was working there or he was on holiday.
Speaker 2:He was working at the resort.
Speaker 1:Oh right.
Speaker 2:If it was a holiday mate it probably wouldn't have been so bad. But he actually worked there. The thing is in my brain. I had no issue with him because I knew he'd been in the army and that sort of stuff, so I knew I could probably trust him not too badly. But later on that afternoon I was in my quarters sitting in my room, that sort of stuff, and his younger brother walks in oh no, he's by himself, fortunately says what, what are you doing here? With a few expletives put in there, because they knew who I was, they knew what I was, as in the sense they knew I was a copper.
Speaker 2:I can't remember what I said, but I knew I couldn't trust this guy. I couldn't trust him at all Bill 1.20 so what happened anyway? I, I, it only I only lasted seven days before they. They shoved it all down because the guy I was rooming with he did not take to me at all. He hardly said boo to me you know he didn't socialize with me anything like that. He tried to avoid me where he could. So whether the guy I knew told him something, I can't say because I don't know.
Speaker 1:Or Chinese whispers.
Speaker 2:Oh, of course, of course. No one sort of overtly said anything to me or anything like that or dissed me as such. No one sort of ostracised me or anything like that, thinking it was bad news or something. But this, this guy who I was rooming with, yeah he's, he definitely had nothing to do?
Speaker 1:did you sleep with one eye open?
Speaker 2:no, the thing was I was 20 and stupid. This is the thing about that job. Back in that time I I was ignorant to the dangers you you know. After that job, where I got recognised, you know, it didn't worry me too much because I got home and said to my parents I said, next time I'm going I'm going to tell you where I'm going. So can you tell me if we know any people in the town? And when I said that they didn't even know, they were there anyway so it wouldn't have helped, so it wouldn't have made a difference?
Speaker 1:um, no, was anything said like so? When? When? Obviously I know the process that goes through, when that happens and you go to your controller and you go, hey, I think we've got a problem, and then everyone goes in the background and starts going shit, shit, shit, shit shit when you come.
Speaker 1:When you came back, did anyone sort of go why didn't you tell us, or anything like that? No, no, it wasn't, Not that I recall there was no backdraft or anything like that, Because I remember I think I made a phone call, obviously through the manager.
Speaker 2:I made a phone call back to HQ because I didn't have a controller, because I was on this island, so it's not really plausible, yep. And I rang them and said mate, it's not going real well, mate, this is what's happened. And he said I'll leave it a couple of days, see how it goes. And yeah, it didn't go anywhere.
Speaker 1:You just didn't take it. So when I got, home nah.
Speaker 2:And when I got home nah. And when I got back, what are they going to say?
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, had a nice holiday. Thanks for that.
Speaker 2:The pool was nice and warm. Well, that's it. Yeah, the spa was lovely and that sort of stuff, but yeah, at least I kept it, at least the bar was clean after I cleaned it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's good. Now I just want to touch on. So we were talking about going back into main, you know, vein policing or general duties, but you didn't actually go back into general duties. How do you think your time undercover and we've had some discussions about this, but or how did your time undercover affect your future? You said four or five years in the police. Did it affect your time in the police?
Speaker 2:and and we'll just go there first, because there's a couple of follow-up things around that- yeah, like the thing was, I was bitter because I was forced back to uniform and stuff like that, and so it did affect my mental health. I actually had a mental breakdown in 1999, which was about three and a bit years after COVID, and it wasn't PTSD as such or anything like that, and and I haven't been diagnosed with that either, but it, you know it's, it's affected me a lot more now that, now that I actually appreciate. You know, as I just said, you know it was a big game to me. I was playing. You know I, even during my time as a COVID, I actually had a credible death threat against me. You know how did you?
Speaker 2:deal with that. Well, again, I was a bit naive to it. Still, I think I was 21 at the time. It was confirmed to me and the silly thing is is my mate was having his son at the local hospital where the threat had originated from. So I'm carrying a backpack with my gun around with me in the local hospital, you know, just in the off chance, you know, I was going across the road to the local servo. You know, yeah, yeah, I remember telling the story a few years later to my mate's parents and saying you know, I had my gun in my backpack.
Speaker 2:At that time I said, oh, you know, and it wasn't to me, it wasn't anything really, but in hindsight it affected me a lot more than I chose to understand at the time, because you know like there was that. You know that not, and a lot of it is some of it's on me as well. You know like there was that. You know that not, and a lot of it is some of it's on me as well, you know not. I'm not going to say it's all their fault, but yeah, it was tough the rest of my career. You know like I, one of the things that got me was the bureaucracy, like because I had skills that I wanted to use and utilise and that sort of stuff. So I went into a lot of the IT areas of the police service.
Speaker 2:My last job was in the forensic computer examination unit and part of that was looking at computers and analysing them for evidence. A lot of that time, you know, there's fraud documents and stuff like that, but a lot of it was child pornography and those sorts of photos and stuff like that that we were exposed to as well. And and the thing was is that you know, I come up, I come part mentalized and that's that's how I lived my life back then. And you know, as a young fella, yeah, put that away, I don't need to deal with that. You know I don't need to deal with that. You know I don't need to deal with that. And obviously, you know my bucket got too full one day and just spilled out.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and you don't have to talk about this if you don't want to, but my assumption is you were still in the job when all those walls started to fall down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, very much so.
Speaker 1:How did that sort of? What was the trigger? I don't remember exactly what it was.
Speaker 2:It was just I remember one day waking up saying I don't want to be here anymore. Fortunately, I was living with my fiancée we weren't married at that time, we were living together and unfortunately, um, she was able to get me help and that sort of stuff. So, uh, it got pretty bad, uh went on medication and that sort of stuff. Um, you know sharing a bit much here, but I even had shock therapy and that sort of stuff, uh, in that year. So can't, if anyone offers that to you, please do not take it again.
Speaker 2:This is this is the late 90s um yeah, but but the thing is that, so that's how bad my, my mental health was um, and it goes to that.
Speaker 1:Do you think any? So, no, sorry, go on, you know I was just gonna say.
Speaker 2:The thing is I didn't last in the job much longer. After that I did go to that friends computer examination, because that's what I was good at. Um, yeah, uh, but then I left the job in in 2001, not long after that.
Speaker 1:So you were gonna. You're talking to all these people. Do you think the people you were talking to understood what you had done and how that it impacted you? Or was it more about oh, you've got a problem, so we've got to fix the problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was more the latter, because even the people at work I can't remember who I spoke to there too much, but no, I don't think it went back to that and even I do remember talking to my first I always get these times with Josh psychiatrist about it and the thing was, and even we didn't talk about work or PTSD or anything like that. At that time it didn't seem it was just more about dealing with the symptoms of my anxiety and depression.
Speaker 1:Okay, do you think now that it's been a number of years and you look back on it, do you do you? Can you see? Can you pinpoint? Maybe not pinpoint, but can you see the, the things that you may have experienced, that may have contributed towards that?
Speaker 2:oh, very much. So you know, as we all know, hindsight's a wonderful thing and living in objectivity and looking at those things, you look at it with a very different lens, especially with an older head, and think you know the stupid situations and the stupid choices I made. I think you know I could have dealt with things a lot better Yep, Like I could have made a lot better choices. But the thing was, but in saying that they're the choices I made, I've had to live with those choices and that sort of stuff and I've worked over many, many years with many, many professionals to deal with those thoughts.
Speaker 1:Okay, do you feel you're on the road to getting better? Yeah, very much maybe getting maybe getting better is not the right word to use, and and I don't mean that to sound frivolous um because, what someone said to me is that you don't actually ever get over it. You don't actually ever get better. It's how you, how you learn how to not let it affect you as much or or understand the symptoms before it gets too bad.
Speaker 2:And that's it. It's knowing your triggers and stuff like that. Like the thing is, I've been on a thing called Trojan's Trek, which is a fantastic organisation. They help veterans and first responders deal with things like I've been through and PTSD and all those sorts of things and I've been fortunate enough and all those sorts of things and I've been fortunate enough. I was actually to attend a second one and got to interact with some of the people there as well and even doing that I learned a lot more about about myself and about what's happened with me. And and the thing was, you know I don't know if you've heard of the term, but yeah, hear about the black dog is following you around and stuff like that. And the thing is, I do have that dog, that black dog, locked in the cage most of the day, but it gets out every now and again.
Speaker 1:That's probably the easiest way to put it Speaker 1 1.00. Okay, I'm sorry the group was.
Speaker 2:Trojan Speaker 1 1.00. Trojans Trek, as in T-R-O-J-A-N Trek, t-r-e-k. Yeah, they run groups here in Queensland, south Australia, and I believe they're looking at other wines across the country.
Speaker 1:What I might do is.
Speaker 2:I'll find the link. I'll get you the link, yeah.
Speaker 1:And we'll put that in the details below this episode so people, if they want to, they can reach out to it. Look, I want to come back to some of that, but so you've gone through this. I want to say pain, but I don't know if that's the right word. Towards the end of your career, you leave the police, yep. What happens then?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, that's the thing is. When I joined straight out of high school I thought, wow, this is, this is, this is my life, this is my career for the rest of my life. You know, and you don't realize you've got like a 45 year working history. I think, wow, yeah, even though 55 is police retirement day, but wow, I don't have 40 years of this. This is awesome. But I get to that realisation when I've got the paperwork in and retiring and stuff like that, and just think, wow, what now?
Speaker 2:I was fortunate, I did have those IT skills and that sort of stuff and that took me through many, many years. I went through quite a few different employees and that's again partly because of my mental health. I did have one employer who was fantastic in supporting me and my mental health. They were fantastic. If they ever see this, I hope they know who I'm talking about. But the thing was it wasn't the same in the sense that sure, I was helping people and I was very good at what I did, because doing computer support was predominantly my roles and I was very good at it because you give me a problem, I solve it and so. But the thing is I couldn't make a career out of it, because I couldn't talk the talk, I wasn't management material and all this sort of stuff, because I can't talk these fancy words and stuff like that. You and your role will know what I'm talking about there.
Speaker 2:But the thing was I was still a little bit lost. So when I applied to become a firefighter, I thought this is fantastic, because now I can actually help people. In the police you do get the opportunity to help people. But I got so downtrodden, especially in general duties, when all I was doing at the time was going to everyone's house to take their complaints about oh, my house was broken into or this got damaged, and it just wears you down because that's all I was doing, because as a general duties cop that's you know well, this got stolen. You know I wasn't actually doing anything to actually help people. Sure, I made the odd arrest here and there, but that's not necessarily helping anyone.
Speaker 1:So hang on, hang on. I just want to come back to that.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:It felt like you weren't doing anything substantive. It felt like you weren't making a difference. That's what it felt like. Yes, I'm not saying what I yeah. Sorry, I don't mean to demean the job that I was doing.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, but I didn't see that. I wasn't seeing the positive sides of it. That's the thing. I was only seeing the positive sides of it. That that's the thing I was only seeing the part where someone's complaining. We whinged it to me.
Speaker 1:Whinged it at me again, yeah I know I shouldn't have taken it personally and no, it just gets you down. It's more and more the fact that I guess the reason I sort of focused on that was that, yeah, that that's the way you feel and you don't see that. You probably are making a difference. You probably are helping people, but because all you're doing is copying negativity, copying criticism, copying the. This happened. Why haven't the police done this? This has happened. This has happened. This is bad.
Speaker 1:It's happened that's right yeah and I think one of the things I said to you was that the police aren't really good at going hey, these are the good things.
Speaker 2:We just we'll just, we'll, just yeah. And it's funny, like in my current career, I've done a couple of leadership courses recently and that sort of stuff and you look at what the lessons they're living with are teaching me and they're fantastic. But you look at back at those times and that sort of stuff when we didn't really have leaders in the sense that they weren't leading us somewhere, you know, um, yeah, right, I probably was making a difference, but I didn't know about that. My management didn't tell me. You know it was, it was. I was living in this, this negative world, um, and the thing is I didn't have resilience back then, this negative world, and the thing is I didn't have resilience back then. I'm a lot better at that these days, the resilience. So resilience is a funny thing in the sense that it takes many forms. Bill 1.15 yeah, jeff 1.16. Yeah, I'm stuck for words right now. Bill 1.17 no, that's okay. How do you think you developed? But yeah, I'm stuck for words right now, which is no. No, that's okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:How do you think you developed resilience? Because I would think it's always been there, it's just you've not known how to access it.
Speaker 2:Well, that's probably true. I suppose, you know, as a younger fellow, when I was doing the UC work and all that sort of stuff, I still played sport and had those connections and those sorts of things. But then I left football, I had a child, I got married and the thing is, I fell out of those things that connected me to other people and I suppose I lost those resilient things that connected me. And the thing is, you know, a lot more recently I've been able to reestablish those and then look back and think, oh yeah, well, that's what kept me grounded, or yeah, maybe better, and that sort of stuff, you know, allowed me to keep going through life without worrying too much about this other stuff.
Speaker 1:You were able to share those problems is not the right word, but that's the word I'm going to use with other people who understood them, whether it be at football or the policing family and that sort of thing. And I guess, how long did you do the IT stuff?
Speaker 2:I did that for about 12 or 13 years before I got into fire service.
Speaker 1:And how long have you been in the fireys now?
Speaker 2:It's come up to 10 years.
Speaker 1:Do you think and this is something that I've struggled with and so I just want to throw it out there in regards to whether it strikes a chord, the camaraderie you had in the police we were talking about resilience you didn't know how to access it, maybe, but you were in a group of people who, albeit, were probably the same negative thing, you felt like you belonged, you felt like you were part of it because you were all in the same boat, regardless of whether there was leadership or management, and that's a that's a completely long topic. Then you get out of that and you're working for a bunch of people where, in the private enterprise, people work for themselves. Maybe they're out for themselves, going back into a group where you're all people understand what you're going through and that sort of thing as well, but over that period you've learned more about yourself.
Speaker 2:so when you're here now, you've got the ability to realize that resilience yeah, that's right, like, like, I look back at my it career and some of the places I worked for and that sort of stuff and there's two places, there's two places, two private enterprise jobs that I work for, that uh had. They're great people to work with, um, one was the one I just mentioned before about, you know, really accepting of my mental health, like, for example, one afternoon, um, we went and watched the cricket down, went and watched the cricket for you know two or three hours, yeah, and that was just. It is yeah, and my last job before I joined the fire service, every Friday afternoon we'd go. It was in an old house, so at the back they had a little bit of a patio area where we'd go and sit and have a drink and just have a chat, you know, talk about what are you doing on the weekend, all those sorts of things. So the thing is those two jobs show me that. The thing is they appreciate people as people. You know you weren't just a number and that sort of stuff. And my manager at that last job, she was fantastic because she knew nothing about it. But the thing is she was a great manager because she knew how to motivate people and she knew how to talk to people as well in resolving problems.
Speaker 2:Yep, now joining the fire service, I've I um again doing these programs through Trojans Trek. I've learned a lot more about my own resilience and what helps me and, hopefully, what can help other people, to the to the point where it's a lot more prevalent in my my in my current role, in the sense that they talk about mental health a lot more and that sort of stuff. I'm actually what's considered a peer support officer at my work. So the thing is I can be the first port of call for people if they're having, you know, issues or something like that. Like I'm not there to solve their problems. Don't get me wrong, I'm not there to take on their problems. You know, I learned now when I went back talking about that that policing stuff, I was taking it on instead of instead of just saying that is terrible. This is not my feeling, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I understand that a lot better now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah so, because I can appreciate, I've been in this job, I've been in our other job, which we've been talking about. So the thing is they're horrible places to be in, you know, and the thing is, hopefully I can help you, hold your hand or be your guide and whatever you want to envisage it, to get you back to some form of normality, to a certain extent.
Speaker 1:And I think, going through the journey that shows growth and shows an understanding of what you've been through, and go okay. Well, I know I'm not the only one that's going to go through this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right and, like you know, one of the things that got me is that when we go to a critical incident, what we in our role as consumers is that we get a peer support officer who's allocated to us. And the thing is, a few years ago we got some fire comm operators that were allocated to us for a couple of jobs that I had and they're great peer supporters. They're just not peer supporters for me. So the thing is, that's why I actually joined the program because I want to help my peers, that's, you know, people who have done my job, who have been in my situation and those sorts of things. So the thing is, when I joined it, I look back at that stuff I did in the coppers, the UC work and all that other stuff to have a better understanding of me personally, but then also excuse me also to apply that now- to try and help other people.
Speaker 1:I know one of the things you know where we're at at the moment in this conversation is we started talking about resilience. That's one of the big things that you learned um about yourself, looking at your career as a whole. What other things have you learned about yourself? Oh gee whiz you spend far too much money on party shirts or would you believe half of these have been gifts, um, actually yes, I would believe that um that's.
Speaker 2:That's a hard question because I struggle to talk about myself a lot of the time. And even this, like I've been excited to have this, this interview with you. Um, but it's like that's a hard question because I struggle to talk about myself a lot of the time. I've been excited to have this interview with you, but it's like that question where do you see yourself in five years? And all those sorts of things and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:What have I learned about myself? I'm stronger than I believe I am. That's the thing is. I've got all the skills and abilities you know going to all these professionals and that over the years, I've learned a lot about mental health. I'm not a professional I don't expunge to be a professional, but the thing is I know what I've learned has worked for me and you know if I can point people in the right direction. Um, I still want to help people. That's that's, that's one of my core values and that's the thing I've learned, I suppose, is that that hasn't changed over all these years and and that, that hopefully that will.
Speaker 1:That will never, ever change change. Last couple of questions. So what do you think is the most crucial trait for someone who wants to become a police officer in general?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I saw this question I was thinking about you know management's terrible and all that sort of stuff, but that's not going to help anyone in this role, because any job in the world you can have terrible managers, you know, whether it's your private enterprise or government. So do your research, okay, and what I mean, like this is for people even trying to get the fire service, because some people don't Do your research. Talk to people in jobs already. You know especially people that, especially people that have just gone through the process, have just gone through. But also talk to older people. But be objective in the sense that they can tarnish it with their own brush, In the sense that if you talk to a copper that's been in the job for 20-odd years, they're going to have their sway, but if you talk to someone who's been in for a year, they're not, as I'm not quite sure what the word you use.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, gated, so the thing is. So do that? Understand what the role is about. Okay, Don't just look at them giving you a speeding ticket or something like that, or you know, come around if you're ringing a police link and saying you know, this is what's happened. Find out what the job actually entails and what it's going to cost you.
Speaker 1:What it's going to cost you. That's probably a very, very good thing that people need to think about that. They probably don't, especially when it comes to policing. Um yeah, do you think some people are more predisposed to imparting a greater cost on them than than others?
Speaker 2:I think. So, like again, I can look. I can only talk about myself, because I've been in that situation. I wanted to help people. It crushed me. Crushed me because I didn't get to help people as much as I thought it was. But then my cousin married a copper and I met him a couple of times and it was absolutely arrogant. And so the thing is, I look at that and I think well, you know.
Speaker 2:And so the thing is I'll look at that and I think, well, you know, look, he's, as far as I understand, he's still a copper, but um, but the thing always is that you look at those personality traits and think, well, yes, I suppose you need to have some sort of you've got to have toughness, irrespective of how that works, because you've got to have a thick skin. Yeah, because people are going to be throwing things at you, whether it's metaphorically or physically.
Speaker 1:Bill 1.10 00 1.10, both at the same time. Bill 1.10 00 1.10. That's it.
Speaker 2:And the thing is you know you've got to understand that, that you've got to have something outside the job as well. Like, as you know, back in our time we had the police club. So the thing is you become a copper, you drunk with the coppers, you went out with the coppers. You know everything was just the life. Yes, yeah, now I don't believe that's. I'll be honest, I don't know Healthy, if it's still like that or not. Yeah, it's not healthy. Yeah, I'll be honest, I don't know if it's still like that or not. Yeah, it's not healthy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and yeah again. I don't know if it's like that either, but I guess that's a question around the IT stuff, because when I left the police it was like, okay, now what? I don't have people who understand what I'm doing. I don't have people who know what I'm doing. I don't have people, and I guess, going into the fireys it's a similar sort of thing, but probably not in the same way. You've still got that that I was going to say brotherhood, but there we can't say that anymore.
Speaker 2:So family type, um feeling about it yeah, but even even talking about that, though, like again going back in the old days, like fires used to do the same things, in the sense that fires used to be because you spent so much time with them on shift. They would just hang out with other fires, and the thing is they still do that these days, but it's no near and near as much as what it was back in the day. So the thing is that people are learning that.
Speaker 1:The thing is there's more more to life as well and you need to have have pursuits outside of of your job and your job doesn't define you. Um, working undercover. Would you recommend it to someone who? A bright, shiny young copper who's going? Oh, I want to do that. That sounds like fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, I have to think a little bit about this question in the sense that you need to have a good support network around you, and I mean a way for the job. So exactly what we were just talking about there is that it's great having that knowledge base and that experience around you when you're doing the job, to teach you the job and all that sort of stuff. I'm not devaluing that in any way, shape or form, but what I mean, if you are going to do the job, you've got to have that sort of work away from the job, and the reason for that is that's to ground you back into the real world, in the sense that you live in that world, you become that world, and I can only imagine how much harder it is these days, you know, with social media and phones and cameras and all that sort of stuff, to try and do do the job. So the thing is, I think you'd have to go a lot deeper, mentally as well as physically, into the role.
Speaker 1:So when you're not in that role, I think it'd be so vitally important to have those support networks and grounding outside of it. I think that's that's very, very sage advice. Um, there's a question that's just popped into my mind. Um, if anyone's listening to this, this or watching this podcast and they sort of go, oh, actually, you know what I relate to some of that what should they do? What should they do? Oh, again, ask the questions. Do your research? More of the fact that I relate to, I relate to okay, I, I can see myself. You know, I didn't know it was the dog.
Speaker 1:I can see the dog, I, I I can feel myself doing some of these things, you having reactions, all that sort of stuff. What's? Your advice to him.
Speaker 2:Bill 1.20 00.30. Get help. That can be something is just ring someone like, for example, I had a bloke bring me this week crying on the phone and he didn't know who to talk to. So he rang me because he knew I was a peer supporter and that sort of stuff. He's not a firefighter. But he rung me and I hadn't spoken to him for about three or four months and he rung me and said mate, can you help me? What do you want, mate? What can I do for you? And mate, we've spoken. I've spoken to him since then and he's much, much better. He's followed some of the advice I've already given in this interview. Yes, so don't be afraid to ask for help. And that's the big thing.
Speaker 2:Is that again back in our day? I hate those stories. I find those funny stories. We didn't talk about it and we didn't like even co-votes. We didn't talk about you know how we were feeling about things or that sort of stuff. We might talk about how we were feeling about things or that sort of stuff. We might talk about how we're doing our next deal or something like that.
Speaker 2:But in this day and age we need to talk about it a lot more. Reach out to your friends and family and that sort of stuff. They may not be able to help you. Look at things like this, trojan's Tricks and there's a lot of other groups out there that provide support. Obviously, that's one that's in certain areas within the country, but there's other ones, no doubt Retired organisations are like. My wife got me a card once from a retired police association. You know I've still got stuff stuck on the fridge but I've never followed it up, because those exact things that we talked about is because if you get into that, that life, you know, do you go back there? Sort of thing you know is it.
Speaker 1:Is it a step forward or is it a step back? Exactly yeah, I think. I think what you've said is important is, yeah, is don't be afraid to reach out to someone, don't be afraid to help and, as I say on which you haven't seen yet, but on the beginning of this, if there's no one else, call Lifeline.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Talk to someone.
Speaker 2:Well, that's it. Talk to someone and the thing is be aware that not everyone's going to take it on board. There's going to be people who won't care, but that's where you'll find out who your true friends are and who really cares about you by having these conversations. You know the older generation they don't get it Sometimes when you talk about your mental health, because in their day, you know, you get a kick up, you know. Kick on the ass, you know.
Speaker 1:Toughen up, you know, and it's not like a glass of wet cement that's it, yeah um, and, and I think the other important thing is, if someone does approach you listen you don't have to say anything. You don't have to, you don't have to, you don't have to have the answers, you just have to listen and be there for them.
Speaker 2:You know you don't. You know it's like talking to your wife or your partner. Whichever way you go, they don't always need a solution. They just may need to talk to you and ask them questions. If you don't understand, ask them questions they don't understand. Ask them questions. They don't necessarily have to have to answer, but the thing is, by you taking an interest in them, they may open up, and it might, and you, you'll find it that'll probably help them by just actually taking an interest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I agree. Um, all right. Look, we've been going for about an hour and a quarter, so what I might do is we might wind it up, but I'm gonna leave the last comment to you, mate, and go for it oh, no worries.
Speaker 2:well, it's been wonderful. I've shared a lot more than I expected to share, but what I hope people get from this episode is is that it's a journey that I've been through, and so has Jason, but the thing is, you're no longer alone in this world. Don't be afraid to talk to people, and if you are interested in the role, please do your research before you join, definitely my email.
Speaker 1:I'm always happy to talk to people and tell them the bad things, but I genuinely believe that it's a noble profession and that you know it, provided you go into it with the right mindset that, um you, you do at some stage make a difference. Garth, thank you very much for your time. I really do appreciate it to everyone else. Thank you for listening to behind the thin blue line, a whisper in the shadows podcast. If you're a current or current or past police officer, whether you've worked undercover or not, I would love to have you on this episode, on this podcast, to talk about your experiences and things that have happened. So my email is whisper in the shadowspodcastatgmailcom. Thank you very much, garth. Thank you to everyone.
Speaker 1:I hope you've enjoyed this episode and you've found it enlightening. We will catch you next time. Thank you for joining me on Behind the Thin Blue Line, where I have conversations with current and former police officers and they get to tell their stories. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. In the next episode, we'll again explore the human side of policing through more conversations with police officers from around the world. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're a current or former police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next week.
