Whisper in the Shadows
Welcome to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’, your gateway into the nerve-wracking work of undercover policing. The true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I’m Michael Bates, an ex-undercover police officer, and this was my reality for over two years. If your fascinated by the truth that lies beneath crime shows, if you hunger for the real-life stories that leap beyond the boundaries of fiction, ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ is here to satisfy your curiosity. From infiltrating drug syndicates to living a double life, every episode uncovers a thrilling true story that pitted me against the face of danger. Don’t miss out on the chance to step into my shoes and experience what it takes to walk the thin line between law and crime. Subscribe to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ and join me, as we delve into the gritty world of undercover policing.
Whisper in the Shadows
Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Conversation - Episode 5 with Greg Kingston - Part 2
Imagine standing at a regional roadblock in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, when every interaction is tinged with uncertainty and fear. Greg Kingston, a seasoned officer accustomed to handling firearms licensing, found himself reassigned and thrust into high-stress situations. During one domestic disturbance call, a woman’s immediate verbal assault pushed Greg to his limits, revealing how cumulative disrespect has worn down his patience over the years. This episode uncovers the emotional toll that repeated disrespect can take on law enforcement officers, challenging the notion that enduring abuse is just part of the job.
Ever wondered what real police work looks like behind the scenes? Forget the high-octane chases and dramatic arrests you see on TV. Greg takes us on a journey through the painstakingly detailed world of undercover surveillance, sharing a gripping tale from a 2014 operation targeting a drug network in the UK. We explore the strategic maneuvers required to unmask the kingpins and delve into the less glamorous, yet essential, tasks like paperwork and adapting to new technologies. This chapter paints a true-to-life picture of the complexities and challenges faced by officers working to keep our communities safe.
From the streets of Belgium to the cobbled lanes of Bruges, follow us on an international covert surveillance mission filled with twists, turns, and unexpected challenges. As Greg’s team navigates communication glitches and supply shortages, we get a front-row seat to the high-stakes world of international policing. The episode culminates in a dramatic pursuit through Bruges, highlighting the improvisation and quick thinking required in real-time operations. Wrapping up, Greg reflects on his 27-year career and the bittersweet transition to managing a family business, underscoring the profound impact of his experiences in law enforcement. Tune in for an episode rich with raw human emotion, behind-the-scenes stories, and invaluable insights into the complexities of police work.
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Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in the Shadows podcast. In each city, in every neighbourhood, on every street they stand tall, those in blue guardians of our community, our protectors. But who are they really? Behind the Thin Blue Line is the podcast that takes you behind the badge, beyond the headlines, and into the hearts of those who serve and protect. We're here to break down barriers and to tear down the walls of misunderstanding. We're here to listen to their stories, their triumphs, their fears.
Speaker 1:Ever wonder what it's like serving undercover, or what's the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma? Listen as we step into the shoes of those who walk the thin blue line. You have heard my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop. I want to give a voice to all those living amongst us, unseen and unnoticed, who have put their life on the line being a police officer, hopefully to give you, the listener, a glimpse into something you will likely never get to experience Uncover the complex world of law enforcement and the raw human experiences behind the badge.
Speaker 1:Join me, jason Somerville, your host and a former police officer myself, as we navigate through these stories on Behind the Thin Blue Line. Let's go and meet our next guest. Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Greg Kingston. Last week, greg was just telling us about how his tolerance levels had slowly, over the years, declined in regards to dealing with people who didn't show respect to the job or to the uniform. Join us now as Greg continues this conversation and talking about what happened and we move on to further understanding what he's been doing and what he will be doing after policing.
Speaker 2:But I haven't let situations that I've dealt with previously kind of cloud my judgment into how I treat somebody else.
Speaker 1:What if you don't get there? And you just you've said you know you expect respect back. If you're not getting that, what? What buttons does that push?
Speaker 2:and we can hardly talk about this if you don't want yeah, no, no, it's fine, it pushes the wrong ones for sure you know, because you you're asking people to do things, they're not doing it or they're giving you a gob full of abuse.
Speaker 2:So I found at the beginning of COVID it's a fairly good example, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my tolerance level because I was in an office, I was working at firearms licensing. Yeah, beginning of COVID, we got turfed out of the office because they deemed it not to be an essential service at the time, was put back in uniform, went to man what we called regional roadblocks, so people weren't allowed to move outside their region in WA and if you wanted to, you had to get basically a passport and authority to go. And it ended up that the OIC of the station I was at asked us if we'd mind doing some tasking so the guys that were tasking could have a break and go to the roadblocks, because it was a fairly easy gig sitting on your backside for 10 hours checking everyone was coming through with the right authority. And we went to a domestic where the guy had gone wandering off with his kid in a pair of boxes, I believe it was and she came out of the side door and just gave us a mouthful of abuse before we'd even said hello to her.
Speaker 1:And I just lost it.
Speaker 2:And I just went back off her and there was a few Fs and a few Jeffs thrown in there, yep, and she looked at me, called me an old C, told me that I wasn't allowed in the house, which I was quite happy about. My younger colleague was allowed in and managed to resolve the situation. But it was just my tolerance level for people's own issues that aren't police issues. You know, everybody has an argument and I get. Domestic violence is a massive issue across the world, really not just Australia. You know we're not alone in that problem, but it was. You know, just. It was a stupid argument and she'd actually thrown a thong at him which had gone through a front window which she was then trying to claim he'd thrown at her and all sorts of things. You know the typical big thong was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was one of those reef things, I think so fairly, fairly weighty and it I just my tolerance level had gone back when you first started in the job.
Speaker 1:Do you think you would have reacted in the same way?
Speaker 2:no, no, definitely not. Because I knew as a young constable, even back in the UK, that if I'd acted that way I would probably have been hauled up in front of the superintendent and given a good dressing down, whereas 20 something years later I didn't care if I was hauled up in front of the superintendent. I was just at the point where I couldn't be bothered. You know she'd come out and was wasn't picking on me, she was talking to us both in the same way. Yeah, and I just, but there was a lack of respect?
Speaker 2:yeah, not even so much the respect. You know, she just came out and started shouting and screaming and swearing at us and we hadn't even found out what had gone on. You know, she hadn't told us what had happened and what she wanted us to do.
Speaker 1:She was just going off her chops, yep, and I wasn't prepared to stand there and listen to it and that's fair enough, and and I don't believe you should either and you know there might be people listening to this who go, yeah, but but that's your job. No, that's not a police officer's job. Where I'm going with this is that. Do you think and this is something I've struggled with that lack of respect is something that's built up over the years, that from not so much the dead bodies and that sort of stuff, but the overall lack of respect that police get shown in their job, has developed. A a issue is not the right word, but a response to that where it's like hey, no, I've had enough of being treated like a doormat. You're supposed to respect me because that's what my job is yeah, and I don't.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure that even they should be respecting us. They should respect the uniform, not the person, because you know, you get all sorts of people put the uniform on and some of them are assholes. I'm not going to beat about the bush. You know some of them are assholes and they're the ones that give the ones that aren't a good name. Oh, sorry, a bad name. Yeah, so yeah, and I definitely think that over the last 20 something, 26 years that the level of respect for the uniform has dwindled massively. Um, we'll go back to our earlier conversation. You know that I think social media has had a massive, massive role in, in, in that, you know, lack of respect, if you want to call it that. The media are so quick to knock the police these days and you know, I think, consequently, the public then think well, if the media are knocking the coppers, then why can't I?
Speaker 2:You know it just seems to be yeah. And then you've got your own executive. That you know, oh, you know, oh. The shit on you from a great height, don't they?
Speaker 1:do you think there's a there's, there's a, I guess, with the media and the public in general, because you, you, you know, one of the things that we mentioned was that not so much respect for the person, but respect for the uniform and respect for the job and and and that sort of thing. Do you think that this whole lack of respect and this whole being oh well, if they're doing it, we can, we can knock them is comes about because people just don't understand?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I think you said it earlier that you know there's not enough that gets broadcast about what the police do from day to day. All of these programs you see on telly don't really scratch the surface. They say that they show the. You know the juicy bits, the bit that, yeah, that people want to see that. You know the good traffic stops, the highway patrols doing their bits and pieces. They don't show. You know the mundane stuff where you're sitting in an office having to do paperwork because if you don't you're going to get hauled up in front of you. Know some magistrate because you haven't prepared your brief properly, or, yep, you know your senior sergeant's going to give you a roasting as well. Yes, but that's boring. People don't want to see that. You know it's. That's not something, but it is a massive part of the job, as is all of the other mundane stuff that never gets shown. You know, and I think if the public were a little bit more aware of more of what we did, they might have a different perception.
Speaker 1:They know, and that's very true. All right, let's change tack a little bit. Yep, when you first started, what surprised you the most about policing?
Speaker 2:Oh, what surprised me most. Going back to the boring the paperwork yeah, it was back in those days before computers were really. You know, the late 90s computers were there, but they were fairly rudimentary you.
Speaker 1:You were lucky I had, I had a, an electric typewriter and well, well and nine nine you know briefs were were nine carbon copies that you had to turn around and make sure you got them the right way around.
Speaker 2:Again, yeah, again, yeah yeah, no, I didn't have typewriters, but you know, we were still, you know, preparing our own briefs ourself, you know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think, the amount of paperwork that you had to do. Even so, we had something called stop and search back in the UK, yeah, where you could with reasonable grounds, you could stop anyone on the street and have a chat with them and you'd build up your grounds to search them. Most of the time you'd know what you were looking for. You'd be looking for a druggie or someone with stolen property or something similar like that, but you had to complete a raft of paperwork to justify your stop and search. So, yeah, I think the level of paperwork was the biggest surprise. It wasn't all Gucci going out in the street with the lights flashing and chasing after shoplifters or burglars or this, that and the other, and rolling around and putting the handcuffs on and giving them a you're nicked, mate. You know you then had, after all of that happened, you then had hours and hours behind a desk, or, you know, staring at a screen trying to get everything ready to a standard that was going to get a conviction.
Speaker 1:If you'd known that, do you think you would have joined? Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:I think the bad things that I've experienced are far outweighed by the good things I've experienced.
Speaker 1:Okay, Now, usually around this time, I will ask you to tell some stories, and I know you've got a couple of good ones that you've alluded to, so I'll hand it over to you and tell us about some of the things that you've done that you think are really interesting or really you know people would like to hear about.
Speaker 2:Okay, Well, this one is a surveillance job. When I was back in the UK, as we've talked about, I was on a surveillance team. Then it was 2014 that this actual part of the operation happened. It was a long running operation. We'd been working on it probably on and off for the best part of 12 months prior to this actual week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was a group what we called a criminal network same here that was importing drugs from Europe into Kent. Generally they were coming in on trucks across the ferries into ports that weren't particularly well observed by the border force or anyone like that. So it wasn't the main one in Dover. Then it wasn't the main one in Dover. No, there was a couple in Essex and further around the coast, going up the north. There that were predominantly cargo ports and so, yeah, we'd, we'd worked our way through this criminal network, taking out lower players that we evidenced with either amounts of cash or drugs on them and, again, as a surveillance officer, we weren't involved in the arrest.
Speaker 2:We'd have teams that would go out and do the arrest so we could remain anonymous. But there was a pair not far from where I first policed, on the southeast kent coast there, that were the kingpins of this organization. So we had a phone call on a Sunday from the OPC Commander saying we need six people to bring the passports, because we believe that subject they all call him is travelling to Holland to facilitate a drugs importation and we had taken out the players below them that would previously have done that themselves. So that was the whole point of it, was to take out the lower players so that the big bods, the kingpins, had to do the hand work themselves and that's what we succeeded in doing.
Speaker 2:So we turned up to work, so our teams were generally about 10 strong. Yep, we would normally have a motorbike with us as well, but they were a bit pedantic with the weather conditions so we wouldn't always have them. So we tipped up to work and obviously we've now got all we had. Have still got the ability to get on a train and you go through passport control and the next thing you're in france or or belgium, yep. So we anticipated that he was going to be using the euro tunnel, hence the reason we were taking passports. So we had a briefing we'd always brief in the morning about what we were going to be doing that day and what the crews were. So we were in situation on the subject's home address at 4.30 on the Monday morning and the intel didn't. It wasn't specific enough that he was going on Monday, but we knew at some point in the next few days he was going to be travelling across to Europe. Yeah, it got to lunchtime, one o'clock. We hadn't seen him all day.
Speaker 2:The guys that were obviously there was a phone tap. The guys that were on the phone said it's not going to happen today, so you might as well stand down, go home, get some sleep, come back for the same time tomorrow. So Tuesday comes. We're back on the plot at 4.30. We go till about half past 12, quarter to one, again thinking it's not happening today. He then comes out of his house and he gets in his car, drives around the local town. We observe what we believe are probably minor drug deals.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he then goes home and we think, well, that's probably it for the day. He's done his stuff. But then about five minutes before stand down time, which the op commander called at one o'clock, he came out with a wheelie suitcase. So we knew that we were going on at that point, walked to the local train station and jumped on a train and we had an operative in close that found out he was getting the train up to l, to the international terminal. So our cars were fitted with covert blue lights and sirens. So those of us that weren't on the train, we put two on the train to control him up to London. Those of us that weren't on the train, then blue light run up to other international stations on the route and we managed to get to London before he did. So that was the whole team, plus we had two investigators that were traveling with us. Yeah, they made some inquiries through the Met Police, who police at the international stations, and flagged his name. So when he bought a ticket we were made aware of where he was going and what time train he was going to be getting. So we were then bought tickets. So for the six operatives plus the two investigators, we got tickets, we were assisted through security and X-ray machines because we were wearing body sets covert body sets for our communications and, bearing in mind these trains are about 25 carriages long, our tickets were 14 carriages behind him. He was up near the front of the train and are about 25 carriages long. Our tickets were 14 carriages behind him. He was up near the front of the train and we were 14 carriages back, so fortunately the buffet car was the one in front. So we had two in the buffet car that were enjoying a Coke and a sandwich on the train through the tunnel.
Speaker 2:But he goes to Brussels and he's one of the first off the train. He literally almost runs along the platform and followed by the two that were in the buffet car and jumps in a. It wasn't a legit taxi, it was one of those. Certainly in Europe you get dodgy taxis, yep. So he jumped in that. The two that got off the train behind him jumped in one behind it and follow that taxi and it took us to some dingy district in the back streets of Brussels. So the rest of us and the two investigators jumped in another legitimate taxi and ended up in this dingy area and controlled a bar where he'd been seen going into, came out about 30 minutes later, having wandered the streets for you know a good five, 10 minutes looking for something. And he then got in another taxi. And we then had a loss on him because we'd got no vehicles.
Speaker 2:But the investigators did a good job and had got bank records from previous trips of his and worked out that he stayed at this particular chain of hotels. So we all jumped in another taxi back to this hotel and I went in to inquire about rooms for the night because we'd thought we'd lost him. And as I was at the hotel reception desk, he came down and sat at the bar and got himself a beer. So we managed to get rooms in the same hotel. But we were still anticipating that the following day he was going to be going to Holland.
Speaker 2:So we researched and found out that he the train station opened at 5.30. So we at this point it was probably about half past 10, 11 o'clock at night we still needed to debrief the day's surveillance. So we found a restaurant, had a bite to eat and probably got to bed about one half one, I would think. And we're then back up and ready at 5.30, covering the ticket office and we had one in the hotel lobby with a laptop looking like they were waiting for a business meeting or something.
Speaker 2:So about 10 o'clock the following day so this is now Wednesday he came out, wandered around the local area, didn't make any moves towards the train station, and I should probably explain at this point. So our radios work on a digital radio network in the UK, so they were absolutely useless in Belgium, except we had what was called the back-to-back operability, so we could talk to each other about 100 meters away. But it was affected massively by things like electric power lines, train lines, buildings you know the topography around so we really weren't able to communicate with each other. And the other thing is we didn't have chargers for anything because we were only expecting to go for a day and literally back.
Speaker 2:We were handing over to dutch surveillance who were ready to receive him. So we had nothing. We didn't even have a change of clothes other than maybe a spare pair of jocks or something. So he wanders around. An early afternoon he actually walks out of the train station and meets with a english registered vehicle that hands him an envelope and drives off. That was.
Speaker 2:It was just literally a handover of an envelope and he drove off, and later intelligence told us that that was a debit card, that he'd been brought by one of the other players back in the uk because he was trying to hire a car to get to holland, and it also turned out that that backstreet ding place that he took us to on the first, when he first arrived, they had dogged the car up there, but because brussels is the head of, or the um, the center of the european union, if you like, they're very strict on security and this car had been sacked for two weeks with no movement, so they picked it up and taken it away.
Speaker 2:So had, he got that car, our day would have been, you know, unless we'd managed to get a taxi that was prepared to go to Holland, our day would have been over even more quickly anyway. So, going on, he went into a couple of car hire places and had obviously used what we now know was this debit card, but they wouldn't take it because they require credit cards. So he wasn't having a good day was he?
Speaker 2:he wasn't having a good day, no, and he was constantly on the phone and our guys back there were eventually coming through to us saying you know, he's trying to hire a car and he can't because he's got a debit card. The investigators made an approach to one of the car hire places and they told them that there is one place, or a couple of places, will accept cash or debit cards. So we were still anticipating that he was going to try and hire a car. But eventually he went back to the hotel and sat down at the bar again and looked like he was in for the night. So we'd booked out of that hotel in the morning, so we were now without room. So we then had to go and find another hotel. We didn't really want to stay in the same hotel as him again, so we found another hotel a short distance away, but we're back on the ground at 5 30 the following morning.
Speaker 1:So this is now thursday did you go to a, a place to buy some?
Speaker 2:clothes, yeah. So the commander sent two of the operatives off, so there was five guys and one female.
Speaker 2:She was allowed to go off on her own and buy her own pants and bra, but they essentially just said right, we've got a couple of guys that are probably XL, two that are large and two that might be medium. So we'll just go and buy six T-shirts of various sizes and six pairs of jocks that are various sizes and pairs of socks to do us all. But the big thing about surveillance is that you need to change your appearance, and we only had one coat, we only had one kind of outer layer of clothing, so we were kind of really flying by the seat of our pants almost because, we weren't able to change our appearances that much, but yeah, so we got clothes, but we're all running on fumes, really, because we've had a very long day the first day, the second day
Speaker 2:again. We were covering the train station until last knockings, which was about nine o'clock at night. We then had to do the debrief again and we were back again at 5 30 the following morning. So there was something that was applied for before we even left. The uk called an article 40, which it's twofold. It gives us the authority to deploy abroad, yeah, but it also should not force, but certainly request the assistance of the police from the country that you're in, yep. So the investigators got hold of the police in brussels and they basically told us where to go, but they might be able to bring us chargers for our radios, which it turned out they didn't fit. They didn't use the same stuff even, you know trying different.
Speaker 2:You know those chargers you get with multiple adapters on, so they didn't work. So Thursday came, we're absolutely hanging myself and one of the other operatives watching the train station and, lo and behold, mate boy comes out. We get the heads up that he's left the hotel and he walks into the ticket office and buys a ticket for Bruges, which is on the way to Holland. But it's not the international train or the train that would have taken him to Holland. So again, we're on a magical journey who knows where. So we all pile on the train to Bruges. We get off, our man, jumps in another taxi and disappears as soon as he's off the train. Two manage to get in the taxi. Sorry, not two, four of us. We all pile in the taxi behind and do the old film words of follow that cab.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what did the cab?
Speaker 2:drivers say when you did that, it was quite funny actually, because this cab driver was fairly switched on and he was like are you James Bond? And it was like, no, we're not James Bond. We need you to follow that taxi, though, and he was doing a couple of red lights, which he shouldn't have done, and we said to him look, don't get in trouble for us. And he turned around and pointed to the taxi sign. You know the authority that they have. It was laminated in his car and he went. Well, this feels like James Bond, because my taxi number is 007. That was quite an amusing little aspect of it, but because of traffic and traffic lights, we we eventually lost our bloke, but the taxi driver actually got onto the base and spoke to them and said where's this taxi gone? And he led us to a hotel that bordered the motorway that would take you to Holland if you had a car. So we pulled up in the taxi to see our man walking up the hotel steps into this taxi.
Speaker 1:So this is obviously a prearranged point that he's now been told to go to yeah yep on the way to bruges.
Speaker 2:The investigators had got hold of some friendlies that they'd met on previous operations that were part of the drugs and police in bruges, and they actually came out, so we managed to get rid of the taxi driver.
Speaker 2:We then sat outside the hotel covertly saw our man come out he walked up and down the street a couple of times and as he was walking back in, a dutch registered car drove into the car park. My man went to the back and walked out with one of those, you know, those big nylon laundry bags that are red and white yeah, one of those and it was obviously fairly weighty.
Speaker 2:So we're now thinking that he's obviously got the handover of what was meant to go in a truck in holland when, if should he have got there, still didn't know whether it was cash or drugs, assumed it was drugs.
Speaker 2:But the belgian authorities aren't allowed to just go on. We think it's this. They have to go to a judge and get permission to, or they present the circumstances and the evidence that we've got up to date, and the judge then says, okay, well, you can go and arrest him and see what you've got. So the Dutch car left the hotel we sent, in fact, myself and my colleague in the car with the Belgian copper went herring off up the motorway after it to at least get the registration plate, which we managed to do. We then passed on to the dutch authorities. We then got back to the hotel as the belgian, the bruges police, had been given the authority by the judge to go into the hotel and arrest our man and search his room.
Speaker 2:So the belgian police were plainclothes and armed, but they weren't routine. Well, routinely, they weren't what's the word I'm trying to look for conventionally armed, the guns in waistbands and things like that. You, you know it wasn't in a holster, yeah. And so we had two officers in the bar with a recording device, which I won't go into too much details, but it was on the table recording everything that went on.
Speaker 2:And this Belgian inspector walked into the hotel bar, identified our subject, grabbed him around the the throat, pulled his gun from his waistband, pointed at his head and this dark patch appeared at the pants area of our subject and he was arrested and casted away. So the hotel manager, it turned out, was very friendly with a higher up in the Bruges police and was more than happy to assist us and told us which room our man had been in. And we then went upstairs to the hotel room with Belgian police and searched the room and I pulled back the curtain and there was this bag that we'd seen being taken from the Dutch car, and we opened it and there was 13 bricks of cocaine in there, which were a kilo each, and at the time the value, I think, was 2.1 million euros, whatever that equates to in Australian dollars?
Speaker 1:Is that street value or how much he would have paid for those 13 years that was?
Speaker 2:probably wholesale value. So that was uncut, fairly pure cocaine. So that would equate to probably if you cut it, even 25%. You're probably looking at 8 to 10 million euros. So it was a fairly substantial seizure. Yeah, what else happened?
Speaker 2:So on the Wednesday our office had decided, because we hadn't got to Holland, that they were going to send four out with like a VW transporter. So at least we had some wheels, we had the ability to dump our bags and you know they were going to bring out a load of coats that were hanging in the office, so that at least we got some chance of changing our appearance. So they left the UK. On Thursday morning, as we were getting on the train to go to Bruges, and after all of the search had been done and we'd found and seized the bag of cocaine and our man had been carted off, we still had to debrief. So we debriefed everything and we were enjoying a couple of beers when the guys from the uk arrived in their vw transporter and enjoyed some beers with what happened. What happened to old mate? He was so on the continent they're fairly quick in dealing with things like this and within two months he was sentenced years. Did he have more time?
Speaker 1:to spend Like. Was he charged with anything when he went back to the UK?
Speaker 2:I honestly don't know, because that happened in 2014. So it was about sorry, that's my front door.
Speaker 1:That's okay.
Speaker 2:So that happened two months before I was due to leave to come to Australia.
Speaker 1:Would the assumption be that that would happen, though I would imagine.
Speaker 2:So yeah, because there were obviously crimes that were being committed in the UK with the rest of the network that we were investigating. Yeah, but as a result of him getting arrested, obviously words got back to the UK and the other head, honcho, I think he and the other guy back in England were the two main ones he then went on the run and eventually, a few days later, his lawyer contacted the police investigators and he gave himself up eventually because he knew that his time was up.
Speaker 1:His time was up yeah. That's a very, very full-on story.
Speaker 2:It was. Yeah, I mean that's probably slightly shortened, it was you know, but that was the best. Mean, that's probably slightly shortened, it was you know, but that was the best job that I was ever involved in because, as I said earlier, you never knew from one day to the next where you were going to be, what time you were going to finish and where you were going to end up and to have ended up, you know, in a foreign country with no backup.
Speaker 2:Really, the investigators that we had with us did a fantastic job of kind of contacting their counterparts in the uk and then liaising with the bruges police when it we got to bruges. But we were just absolute. But it was the first operation that kent police had deployed abroad. Yeah, you know, given that we're so close to the continent, it was the first time the surveillance team had gone abroad to manage to maintain control of the subject when we were without, you know, communications. Realistically, we were almost reverting to the old school hand signals at times. Yeah, and my wife might burst into the room because I've just heard her come home, that's okay. So, yeah, no clothes, no communications, very little backup, and although we got that article 40 in place, the belgians weren't particularly forthcoming until we got to bruges. So, but to top things off, we then had to get back to brussels to get the train back to england and back to london and, being a friday afternoon, it was heaving. We couldn't get seats. We managed to get, I think, four seats on the first train.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Two on the next, which left two or three of us there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, couldn't drive back in a transporter.
Speaker 2:No, that was full with the operatives that had come out.
Speaker 2:So they went back and it got to the point where we were offered first class seats for something like $2,000 a go. It was £1,000 each to upgrade to first class, which, as much as we've done a good job, I'm not sure management would have been too keen. So we ended up in what's called the sin bin, which is where the coppers sit when they're transporting prisoners. So one of the seats was basically just a bench and extremely uncomfortable and there was three of us and we basically just rotated it. Every half hour We'd change seats. How long is the train trip? It was about two hours 20 minutes, fair enough.
Speaker 1:Well, that wasn't too bad. That's a great outcome. It was a fantastic operation by the sounds of things. A couple of things I sort of want to go over, but I guess one of the things I want to talk about is if someone came to you for advice to join the job, what crucial trait do you think someone needs to join the job and what advice would?
Speaker 2:you give them Difficult in this day and age when there's so many leaving, but there's still plenty of good people out there that do want to join. Yeah, you know, you've just got to be open to experience different things. I think being honest and trustworthy is one of the biggest traits you can have, because if you can't be honest with yourself, then you know, and your colleagues, then you're not going to be honest with what you're preparing for court, and that's where a lot of things fall down and I think you need some life experience before you join the police.
Speaker 2:These kids that are joining at 18, who come from school and maybe had a summer job doing something somewhere I don't think Stan's in good stead and I work at the police academy in Perth now and I look at some of the kids that come through and I just I really I don't fear for them, but I wonder how they're going to react when they go through the first domestic and some big brute the bloke that's, you know, 50 odd years old turns around to them and says what the fuck are you telling me what to do when you're 18? You've never been married, you've never experienced, you know, a relationship, you know, so you've got to be prepared for, for that aspect of it. But go out and get some life experience before you, before you join it might seem it might seem, gucci, it might seem exciting, but the chances are it's not going to be exciting.
Speaker 2:You're going to be snowed under with case files and court paperwork and training courses on the computer that come out left, right and center. But go and have some life experience first. Go and enjoy yourself for a few years before you commit to potentially what could be a 30 plus year career and, and part of that is learn to understand people.
Speaker 1:I think as as well. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and I think the big problem these days is that, especially in Waypole I don't know what it is like around the rest of the country, but everything's done on the phones these days, which is great for the kids because they can use them better than I ever could. But the trouble is they're head down in the phone. They haven't got that 360, you know. Appreciation of what's going around them. You know they're not going to see someone, that's coming to them.
Speaker 2:This is what we call it, they're not going to see the smack that comes from the side of the head, or you know, because they are too busy head down in the phone. So you know again, it's great having technology that works for you, but you've still got to retain that situational appreciation, as you say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you, but you've still got to retain that situational appreciation, as you say. Yeah, no, this is very true. I want to circle back to something that we were talking about. So we were talking about, you know, the whole respect thing and the impact of what you've seen and things like that. You're coming to an end of the end of your policing career. Yeah, do you have any concerns personally in regards to this transition to the next stage of your career and coping with that? Now I probably know a little bit more because you've had some conversations with Nabeel about your wife transitioning out and all that sort of stuff, etc. But do you sort of go, oh, what happens if this doesn't work? Or you know that sort of thing. Do you have any concerns that you may suffer from PTSD and that may be something that's you know could contribute in an organization, or I get you working with your wife, but you might not always't understand it and doesn't doesn't sort of have that back?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing for me leaving is kind of the not anxiety, but it's that leaving something that you've known for what will have been the best part of 27 years when I eventually go.
Speaker 1:Sorry about the doorbell is it cookie week or something, is it?
Speaker 2:I've no idea what it is and the wife's should have been home anyway.
Speaker 2:But having done something for more than half of my life and it's been the same thing, whether it's been surveillance, general duties, training that I'm doing at the academy now it's still been in the police, family, yep, and walking away from that. You know, apart from anything else, it's guaranteed paycheck every two weeks unless I do something really stupid and mess up. Yep, you know I'm going to be responsible for not just my family and my wife's business. You know we're jointly responsible for that, but we've got something like 50 employees now, yeah, so we're responsible for those and it's a big weight to to carry, you know, especially in these days when a touch with covid seems to have although it's rampant again, certainly over here, it's not had the same impact as it did, you know, four years ago, when everyone was housebound for seven days. Schools were shutting. It seems to just be kind of the norm these days that people get on with it. Yep, I do think I'm going to miss that thrill of the chase.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, thrill of the chase.
Speaker 2:The camaraderie. You know the enjoyment you get, but I won't miss, you know, the paperwork. I've gone on about that already, Although what I'm going to be doing more is probably more paperwork.
Speaker 1:But, it's.
Speaker 2:You know the motivation for us is to make our business succeed and you know we give employment to 50 local women. They're all women that work in the canteen at the moment, you know.
Speaker 2:So that's our motivation, you know, and the feedback that we're getting from the schools that we're in, especially one that we've just opened recently, you know, is great and is a great motivator. I'm not going to miss seeing the more gruesome side of things and dealing with the idiots and the arseholes that you do in policing Touchwood we don't seem to have too many in the canteen operations. Well, that's good. In the canteen operations, well, that's good. As far as PTSD, I think I've spoken to you briefly about what happened with my wife and I know she's happy to speak with you at some point in the future, that'd be great.
Speaker 2:But having gone through PTSD with her, what she suffers and I know PTSD varies from person to person yeah, even given what I've seen, I do have flashbacks to things, but it doesn't affect me for more than maybe half an hour. Yeah, there's one that will stick with me to the end of my days and that was a six-year-old baby that I had to do mouth-to-mouth on. Yeah, and that does, if I think about it for too long, it does affect me. So, yes, and that does, if I think about it for too long, it does affect me. So, yes, I have got ptsd and I've kept the card that the mum wrote to us after the incident. Yeah, and again, that's something that I will keep forever, forever. Yeah, I won't ever be able to let that go.
Speaker 2:And that was it was over here in wa fairly early on in my service over here, and that was one of those where you go home and you just give you certainly your kids a big hug. Yeah, and that's when Kate, with her experience of PTSD, just kind of when the kids had gone to bed, sat me down and we talked through it and she went. You know I'm always here, as I had been for her when she went through her PTSD. But, yeah, what Kate went through was is something else and I'll let you talk to her about that. But having gone through that process with her, I think it's helped me deal with issues that I've encountered and other than you know. A few flashbacks and certainly that situation with the six-year-old I don't really dwell on things too much, yeah, so I count myself lucky that it hasn't affected me much more than that and yeah, no, there's very like, I guess one of the one of the things you've touched on there, and this is something that I ask everyone in regards to.
Speaker 1:If you're feeling, if people are listening to this and they go, you know what I can relate to, that I'm feeling that way, or or I've got these things what's the one bit of advice that you would give someone in that situation? And I think you've spoken a lot about when you were talking about, yeah, with your wife there, but yeah, yeah don't bottle it up.
Speaker 2:yeah, just don't bottle it up, because I think if you do, then it just becomes a bigger and bigger, bigger issue in your own head, to the point where it can start to cause issues. Yep, and talk to somebody, whether that's a professional therapist, a colleague at work that you trust and you get on with and that was either you know at the job with you or knows what you're going through, or you know you feel comfortable talking to or go and see your GP and tell them how you're feeling, because we know how big a problem mental health issues are these days, particularly for emergency services, not just the police. There's other emergency services out there that deal with as gruesome situations as we do that affect them. Yep, but yeah, the mental health side of things and it's not just in the emergency services, you know, it's right across society. Yes, you know the push for people to talk to people I think is right that it is getting the attention that it is.
Speaker 1:No, and that's very good advice. All right, look, what we might do is wrap it up there. I really appreciate you opening up and having a conversation with us about your time in the police and obviously some of these other things. What I'll do before we wrap up is I will leave the last comment to you, oh no pressure.
Speaker 2:I just think you've got to enjoy your life, however that comes, and if you do find yourself struggling, please talk to somebody.
Speaker 1:Very, very good advice. All right, Greg, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1:To everyone else, thank you for listening to Behind the Thin Blue Line. If you're a current or former police officer and you would like to tell your story or talk about what you do, then please email me at whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. Thank you for your time and we will catch you next time. Thank you for joining me on behind the thin blue line, where I have conversations with current and former police officers and they get to tell their stories. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. In the next episode we'll again explore the human side of policing through more conversations with police officers from around the world. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're a current or former police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next week.
