Whisper in the Shadows
Welcome to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’, your gateway into the nerve-wracking work of undercover policing. The true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I’m Michael Bates, an ex-undercover police officer, and this was my reality for over two years. If your fascinated by the truth that lies beneath crime shows, if you hunger for the real-life stories that leap beyond the boundaries of fiction, ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ is here to satisfy your curiosity. From infiltrating drug syndicates to living a double life, every episode uncovers a thrilling true story that pitted me against the face of danger. Don’t miss out on the chance to step into my shoes and experience what it takes to walk the thin line between law and crime. Subscribe to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ and join me, as we delve into the gritty world of undercover policing.
Whisper in the Shadows
Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Conversation - Episode 6 with Ben Schultz - Part 2
What happens when a police officer decides to trade the badge for the ballot? Join me, Jason Somerville, as I sit down with Ben Schultz, a former Northern Territory police officer who made that bold transition into politics. In this episode of "Behind the Thin Blue Line," Ben takes us through his journey from a police prosecutor to confronting the Police Association and ultimately choosing a new path. His candid conversations with high-ranking officials like Commissioner Rhys Kershaw illuminate the close-knit world of law enforcement and the profound impact one individual can have.
We also touch on the broader theme of navigating the professional landscapes of politics, policing, and teaching. Ben shares poignant personal stories about childhood bullying that fueled his lifelong commitment to standing up for others. Through his experiences, we explore the camaraderie and rivalries between different emergency services, offering a heartfelt glimpse into how early personal challenges can shape a fulfilling career in law enforcement.
The episode takes a gripping turn as Ben recounts some of the most intense moments of his policing career in the Northern Territory, from managing large-scale tribal conflicts to the psychological toll of desensitization and PTSD. Through humor and honesty, Ben reflects on the highs and lows, illustrating the resilience and camaraderie that help officers cope with the demands of the job. Tune in to uncover the raw human experiences behind the badge and gain a deeper understanding of the complex world of law enforcement.
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Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in the Shadows podcast. In each city, in every neighbourhood, on every street they stand tall, those in blue guardians of our community, our protectors. But who are they really? Behind the Thin Blue Line is the podcast that takes you behind the badge, beyond the headlines, and into the hearts of those who serve and protect. We're here to break down barriers and to tear down the walls of misunderstanding. We're here to listen to their stories, their triumphs, their fears. Ever wonder what it's like serving undercover, or what's the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma? Listen as we step into the shoes of those who walk the thin blue line. You have heard my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop. I want to give a voice to all those living amongst us, unseen and unnoticed, who have put their life on the line being a police officer, hopefully to give you, the listener, a glint into something you will likely never get to experience Uncover the complex world of law enforcement and the raw human experiences behind the badge. Join me Jason Somerville, your host and a former police officer myself, as we navigate through these stories on Behind the Thin Blue Line. Let's go and meet our next guest line. Let's go and meet our next guest.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to part two of my conversation with ben schultz. Let's get on with that discussion. What I want to get at, what I want to get is so you, you'd had enough. You've, you've, you've, uh, you've, you've gone. Maybe I can change how things are happening by entering politics. What happened?
Speaker 2:there. So basically, I mean, if you look at, northern Territory Police is a very small police force. There was only I think there was only 1,200 of us back then. I mean there was only about 1,000, I think when I first joined. So I mean I knew.
Speaker 2:So you know, to tell you a story, I was at an event in Borraloola which was I think it was 150 years since, and the courts had been in Borraloola, and so it was a big, like you know, and the commissioner flew down which was and I will mention his name, it's Rhys Kershaw. He's the commissioner of the FB at the moment and he was our commissioner at the time. And so we're sitting there you know I'm being my usual larrikin self. We had court on at the time. I was a police prosecutor. So I'm sitting there talking to the magistrate and you know, or judge as they're called now, but magistrate and all that sort of thing, because I was on a good first name basis with a lot of them because I've been prosecuting for a while and anyway the commissioner walks over and he goes.
Speaker 2:You always know that the table with schultzy on it it's always the loudest one. So I mean, you know, if you think of anybody in the police force. There's not many commissioners that would know somebody's personality and also their name, you know, just rocking up at an event. So we were fortunate in the way that it was very close, a community sort of thing, um, and I mean, it doesn't mean that everybody knew the commissioner. I was very outspoken, like I said, when we took on the police.
Speaker 1:I find that hard to think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, when we took on the police, when my ex-wife had that drama and all that sort of thing, I got very well known. The police association. I took them on at the same um, because I had a problem with them and one against them as well. And yeah, and I I also. They did a promotional video when I was out at ramming guinea trying to get people in recruiting to go out to these locations. So there's a five minute video on youtube of me out of ramming guinea policing and they used me as a promotion with two other I think it was two other stations they did it with as well. So just to try and get so you know, and if you look at it, it was funny.
Speaker 2:One of the comments was they had me doing an interview as part of that that five minute clip. And anyway it got all sent in and the commission had to look over it to get approved. And he looks at it and he goes you're just going to have to do the interview again. I said why is that? He said the fiber college shadow of his beard because he should be clean shaven. So they actually flew me back into darwin. They actually flew me into darwin so I could do the interview in there instead of out of ramagini, because I'd already done all the filming so, and you had to make sure you came with a right yeah, um.
Speaker 2:What was funny is I forgot my name badge when I went in there.
Speaker 1:You should just ask a question. For years I'll just put yours on. So can you tell me why? What happened what? What precipitated you leaving? What was the story behind you leaving? How and how long had you been in the job at that point?
Speaker 2:so I've been in the job for basically close to 10 years when I decided to leave and then I took basically a year's leave without pay to basically just to try and figure out where I want, just to try and relax, and I'd I'd been flat out for by that stage I mean my whole career, I hadn't stopped. If an opportunity, opportunity came up, I went for it and, as you can see from what I've talked about, like my experiences, it was just, you know, if there was a job, I did it and that was probably part of the reason why, you know, I didn't work out with my ex-wife as well. You know, if there was a job at Bush, I took it. If the police wanted it, I did it. It and I gained a lot of experience. But I remember damo uh saying and so the other half of the ordinary cop, he said he said an ordinary person would be dead. He said the amount of work you were doing is phenomenal and I mean I loved it, I lived the job and but with that kind of the responsibility or the knowledge of knowing and I said this before we got cut off but I had to justify the job, like every time you went to an incident.
Speaker 2:If you got a complaint, you had to justify why you made those decisions, why you did this, why you did that. You know there was so much paperwork. If I want a prisoner flown on a on police air wing, you had to do a risk assessment about this. That you know. Every time something went wrong in the police they created another piece of paperwork which you had then had to fill out. So you know, for a job that used to take you half an hour or who am I kidding a file to take up, a file that used to take you, say, two hours to do a simple file you know would take you four hours to do because of the extra bits and pieces of paperwork you had to fill out. And these pieces of paperwork were predominantly put in because the department didn't have the right people doing the job at the time and so an incident had arisen that they didn't have the qualified people to take care of it.
Speaker 2:So it was and look, do I blame the police department? No, I mean, there's a lot of many factors that come into it. The bosses, I think a lot of the trying are trying to do the best that they can, but you know it all goes through the government and all that sort of funding and you know resources and all that sort of stuff. And so I thought, well, instead of trying to keep banging my head against a brick wall and moving up through the ranks, why don't I try and influence politics or go into politics to to try and fix it from the top end? Now I'm gonna I'm gonna be a bit harshy about the way I say this, but I was always one of the first people to sit there and when I talk about the police force and I always said that they couldn't organize a root in a brothel with a fist full of 50s. And I'll tell you, but one of the funniest things is when I, when I actually got involved in politics.
Speaker 1:It makes the police force look like a willow machine and I think that's a common misconception with um and and I'll come back to this, but I think that's a common misconception by police and probably anyone else really, for that matter that when you, when you've got to that point where you go you know what fuck it I'm leaving you think everything else is going to be better, that nothing can be as bad as where you are. The way the world is designed, it's just dysfunctional. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:You know it really opened my eyes up, I suppose you know when I left, yeah, I just thought, wow, no wonder, no wonder the poor police force is struggling and you know, health and everything and education and all that sort of thing. When you look at some of the muppets up high, you know, in the political spectrum, and what's a shame is there are some really good politicians as well, but they've just drowned out by the idiots, which is such a shame, by by the ideologues, yeah.
Speaker 1:So how did you go? Did you get elected?
Speaker 2:No, I basically. You know I got involved with the party and I'm still involved in it now and I always had plans to run even in this state election. But basically I started the podcast with Damo and that got very popular and I've always. The problem with politics is you're controlled about what you can say In the podcast. There's nobody telling Damo and I what we can and cannot do.
Speaker 1:Well, you haven't had any lawyers' letters turn up yet. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 2:And look, if I did run. All they'd have to do to find something on me is listen to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear you and it's quite interesting that a profession like politics, where it's all supposed to be about you know you doing things and looking after the populace and saying what you mean, and then you're not allowed to. Yeah, kind of like policing, where you're there looking after the populace, keeping them safe, but you're not allowed to say what you really think yeah, exactly yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mate, and I think and a bit like teaching and all those, all those sorts of jobs yeah, yeah, I mean, you know what my, my hat goes off.
Speaker 2:my heart goes out to the paramedics and the people in health there. They're doing a very, very tricky job, and teachers too, like jeez. I mean I always felt sorry for the teachers when I was in the police. At least we had hours, you know, to do something.
Speaker 1:That's very true. I bet the only people you don't feel sorry for are the fireys, because they get to sleep 20 hours a day. Mate, your name feels similar to the fireys because they get to sleep 20 hours a day, Mate.
Speaker 2:look, I'll say this joke. Why are there police? Why?
Speaker 1:So fireys can have heroes and I know there are a couple of fireys that listen to Winston, one of the previous victims of the fire. I tell every kid that one mate. There's a very keen rivalry, so I just want to sort of go off on a little bit of a tangent here. I'll come back to some of these other things that we've been talking about. What did you want to be when you were a kid? I wanted to be a police officer.
Speaker 2:That was my, okay. So you grew up wanting to be a police officer because I saw my uncle and I remember mom and dad like got some little small police shirts for me. I've always I kind of like to touch on something here when I was growing up I was, I was sort of grew up, uh, an hour north of bundaberg, a little place called berrajonda. My dad, mom and dad, had a farm out there and I used to go to school in rosedale and used to be on the bus, you know, back in the days when kids caught the bus to school and, um, and anyway, and I would get bullied on that bus every day. I was only a little kid, I'd be on the bus with my brothers, but my brothers, two older brothers, they, yeah, I mean they, they they're lovely people but they're not, you know, not tough guys by any stretch of the imagination. They, they got, you know, born with more brains than than, uh, brawn, so to speak. And I, anyway, I there was one day, this, this I was pretty tough as a kid and I look back now I was definitely very resilient and this kid bullied me every day and my mum had always taught me ignore them and they won't keep bullying you anyway.
Speaker 2:I remember this one day on the bus and he was sitting behind me and he kept on bullying, just saying stuff, and I just ignored him, just pretended he wasn't there, and he actually punched me in the back of the head. He was two years older than me and my head flew forward. You remember the old seats in the bus and the steel bars, yeah, and my head head butted. That it really hurt. And I remember back the time when I felt like crying but I didn't, I still didn't react. I just I sat there and I just didn't react. I had tears of my eyes but I knew you know, not just you know, just just don't, don't give in to him. You know, don't make him show that he's he's, he's beating you down.
Speaker 2:And but it was at that stage my next door neighbor actually stood up and challenged the bully and said you will not touch this kid anymore. And and the bullying stopped as of that day and and I for weeks I can't remember how long I was pretty young at the time and I remember weeks after I would pretend to be my guardian angel. You know that guy that stood up and then I reckon it was probably about a month later, and I remember thinking to myself why can't I be him, why can't I be that person that stands up against the bullies? And um, and from that day forward, that's what I've done.
Speaker 2:I've been in more fights in my life for other people than I have for myself. So, and all the way through even that school, all the way through high school, I went to boarding school here in Brisbane and, um, you know, that was a, there was a real pecking order in the boys boarding house, um, and yeah, geez, I have lost count the amount of fights I've been in just protecting other people why didn't you join the police straight?
Speaker 2:away. I think it took me a long time to figure out, like my, if you look at my uh, you know I've got a very low op uh, or very high op. Whatever you do, like I was, I was basically the bottom of the of the class, mind you. Yeah, I was going to a very. I was lucky enough to go to a very prestigious school where it was very, very highly ranked and so, of course, I was the bottom ranked at that school. Um, you know, I've always been more a practical person than a theoretical. Um, so and that showed even in the police college I struggled with the theory in the police college to the point that I could I couldn't almost pass exams.
Speaker 2:Then I found my niche and I found out how to learn and I went from like 65% to just about 90%, because actually you'll be able to actually understand this. It was a good friend of mine said to me I was trying to write everything out and I'm a very slow writer. But he said how do you learn stuff when you're in school? And I said I love doing plays. And he said, well, learn, play. So just read it out and learn. And I did, and I went from 65 to 90 in my exams.
Speaker 1:So just just by, just by reading and and reciting and we're probably going off in the tangent here, but one thing that schools don't do is equip people kids with understanding how they learn, because it's all about here it is on the blackboard, here it is in a piece of paper, here it is on a book. You just learn it. Where's um? You know you've got so many. You were talking about that. Uh, you wanted to be a police officer from childhood, but you obviously didn't get the op um and you worked out why, I guess, or how you learn um once you got to the academy. Yeah, what did you do after you finished?
Speaker 2:school. Well, when I first left school, uh, so I met, um, oh, I suppose I hooked up with a girlfriend, um, at school and, um, and her father was a cray fisherman up north up in Torres Straits, so he died for a tropical rock lobster up there. And so when I left school she had to go to uni and so she went to Toowoomba, because that was close to me and I'm. Basically I worked, I've been working, in the fruit shop. My parents didn't have a hell of a lot of money, um, they were lucky enough to send me to a, to quite a good school, uh, with a bit of government help and all that sort of thing. So I used to work a lot in fruit stores, um, you know, in holidays so I was, I used to call school a holiday, which is probably reflected in my op school, um, but I'm a more of a social sort of person, I suppose, and, um, yeah, so I just I basically went back to work in the fruit store and I also started my own business doing lawn lawn mowing and landscaping and all that sort of stuff, um, just to, just to try and keep the money ticking over and in in those. Well, it was probably seven. No, it was probably right up to 2007.
Speaker 2:I left school in 94, so right up until probably the end of the 90s or about 97, um, I used to go, uh, fly up um to uh, torres straits or thursday island on holidays when it was holiday time. And, um and uh, my ex-father-in-law used to take me cray fishing or diving for rock lobster, which kind of freaked me out when I first did it, because, uh, it's, um, yeah, it's. I mean, it's a pretty dangerous profession and I and I did that for. So when she actually finished uni, I went up there full-time and worked on the boat. Um, and got my own boat uh, dinghy, I was a subcontractor off the boat. Um, it's, you know, you work about 100 120 days a year. Um, you know, the rest of the time you're just doing stuff on the boat or going on holidays and all that sort of thing, so you need to make sure you earn a lot of money.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so I and I did that for a year, right up until about 2006 is when I finished off and um, and then um, and then basically it was one of those things where I invested a whole lot of more money into my business up there cause I would doing restrictions and that in the fishery or go and do something else, and I'd already broken up with my first wife by that stage.
Speaker 2:So I figured that, um, that, uh, basically it it. It wasn't good for relationships going out to, you know, because you're going out to sea for 120 days a year, you're not around home much and all that sort of thing. And towards the end of 2005, I'd met and I was going out with my next wife to be wife, I suppose, and she was a teacher or just started teaching up in Port Douglas. So basically, when I left her, my dad suggested that you know, I go over and my uncle suggested I go to the Northern Territory Police. So I put in an application and my ex-wife now she put in for teaching over there and got it straight away and yeah, so we just moved over and then I started in the police.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Do you ever get the feeling that you pick jobs that are anti-marriage?
Speaker 2:I do. Yes, funnily enough, and I think I've said to you, um, I said to you before, whether on this or off it, and I've said I was always a sucker punishment. I always put a hundred percent into everything that I did and placing. There was no difference, you know, if they like, I said, I think before that if I went out bush, if they wanted someone to go at bush, I went out bush. I just did everything I possibly could to, um, you know to, because I loved policing. It was my life, um, and that obviously reflected in my, in my marriage as well. Um, because, yeah, I was. I was just so involved in the, in the, in the job, um, I loved it. I really like policing, was it's my, my ultimate job. It always has been, it's in my blood. That will be the best career I will ever have in my life. So it's, yeah, I really loved it, and I was born to be a police officer. Unfortunately, I think that the police force is a structure these days that isn't really suited to my style of policing.
Speaker 1:And we put it that way you were born too late. Is that what you?
Speaker 2:were saying yes, yes, mate, yeah, definitely I joined. When I joined the Newland Territory it was like a last frontier, so they hadn't really caught up with the other states and you were left. You had a lot of autonomy, yeah, and I really enjoyed being in control. I'll actually tell you a funny story. This is later on in my career, towards the end, and I had a bit of a disagreement with one of my sergeants over a planned event. And anyway, my senior sergeant he was actually off duty, he was fishing at the time, but he overheard the discussion, let's say. And anyway, I was walking back up to my house because he was staying with me out there when we were out at Borraloola, and he goes, what was that? And I said, oh, just some miscommunication, and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, he goes, ah, he said she obviously didn't get the memo. I said, what memo? He said, well, he said to, we tell you what to do and then you do whatever the fuck you want anyway.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I can see that, I can. I can see the a pattern in that from talking to you at those sorts of things. Um, okay, look, talking about, I guess about probably is a good time to sort of go into what are some of the more standout war stories or worries that you have, that sort of shine the light on what life's really like as a copper in the Northern Territory, I think.
Speaker 2:Look, I mentioned one earlier and that was Damo said. You know when he went to, when you're working in indigenous communities, you can get up to 300 people fighting. I had one memorable one for me was I think it was around 2014 or 15. And basically, and what people need to understand, there's different tribes. There's so many different tribes of aboriginals and the tribes hate each other a lot of the time, so they'll have grievances that go back centuries. You know from something that happened back in the 1800s and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:So what happened was Elko Island had come over to Ramangini and I can't even remember it was probably over two people having an argument. That's how these fights basically start out and it was quite big. It was probably about 300 to 500 people and they're just fighting and it's just happening all over town and we're going through, but we could walk through as cops and not get touched. The fight was between the, the tribes, not between the police. So, but we got to the stage where I I still remember vividly a guy getting stabbed in front of me, um, you know, and I had to grab him and pull him back and get him to the clinic and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:It's um and. But I mean we were lucky because their grievance was with each other, not with us. But in the end it went on for about half a day and I was on the phone to the superiors all the time and they'd agreed that they would send TRG, which is our, I think, cert, it's called here in Queensland and basically I yelled out over the top of them. I said I'm on the phone to my commander right now and they will have, you know, trg out here within four hours If you don't stop this fighting. And the people from Elko Island had years or many years ago there was someone shot when a similar thing was going on by people in the TRG. So they were quite terrified of the TRG actually coming out there and um, so they literally it stopped instantly and they got on a plane or boats and went back to Elko Island.
Speaker 1:So I'm surprised they didn't go four hours. That gives us another three hours of giving it the time but, um, you know that that was that was.
Speaker 2:There's some pretty intense, um you know, jobs when you're out there and you're outnumbered. There was only, oh, there was only three cops there at the time. Um, so you know, there's not really a lot you can do, you've just got to manage it the best you can.
Speaker 1:So yeah, uh, anything, anything else. And I'll do this because you got me to tell a couple of stories on on your podcast. So what's a funny type of incident that's occurred, where you look back and, yeah, oh my god, why did I?
Speaker 2:it was. It was early on and I tell this one fairly regularly. It's a. It's a fairly funny story, um, so we were a good mate of mine, who's he's still in the police, actually up in Darwin, but I'll name him. I named him in our podcast when I told the story, so I'll name him here, but Andrew Duggan, and we call him Duggo, and he was a squad just after us and we were driving around one night this is probably. We were only pretty fresh in the police then, like night this is probably. We're only, oh, pretty fresh in the police then, like we would only be a year or something in policing.
Speaker 2:And, um, anyway, we're driving around east side, catherine, and Catherine is a very busy town and you get a call. It's about, I don't know about nine or ten o'clock, I think, and we get this call over the radio you know 481, I think, how our, um, our car was and they said um, can you attend? Down the main street of catherine, we've got a woman walking towards kalana community. She's got a six month old in one arm and a machete in the other and she's walking to kalana to kill her husband, I don't know. So, yeah, I mean you've been in the police before and any police officer I understand going holy shit, how do you handle this one. And so, anyway, the funny thing down and you know what we always do is risk assess when we go into these jobs, yep, so we're going down there and I said to Doug, I turned to him, I said mate, how are we going to do this? Like, how are we going to? He goes, well, he said you've got the taser, you taser her and I'll catch the baby. Anyway, that was our risk assessment when we got there. Good plan, yeah, great planning.
Speaker 2:So anyway, so we get down there, and by the time we get down there, she's actually crossing the high-level bridge, which is just to the north of Catherine, heading up towards Darwin, and so we pull up on the bridge. Now you've got to think the Stuart Highway. It's a big highway, it's the main thoroughfare from Darwin right down to, basically, adelaide. So there's a lot of traffic going to and forth and we've actually cut the traffic off. She's walking on the pedestrian part of the bridge and so Dago has gone around and run over and um, and actually jumped over and, and you know, trying to talk to her, he's standing about 10 meters back. Luckily somebody's already taken the kid off her, so she hasn't got the six month old. So, yeah, our risk assessment was out the window, um, but we could go with the rest of it and um, and anyway, so we're.
Speaker 2:So he's trying to talk to her, trying to calm her down and all this sort of stuff, and just keep his distance and trying to, yeah, just trying to get her to put the machete down and all that sort of thing. And I was walking up on a diagonal from behind her, so I was at a 45 degree coming up behind her and she had a backpack on as well and basically I had the taser out and drawn and um, and ready to shoot, um, anyway, she's basically got the shits in the end with whatever dugo was saying, and she's lifted like the machete up and she did. She said if you're not gonna fucking help me then and he just turned to me, dugo, calm, as anything, he goes, light her up, schultzy. So it wasn't. Yeah, there's none of this, deploy the taser or any crap like that. It was lighter up, it was lighter up, yeah, anyway.
Speaker 2:So I fired the taser and anybody that understands tasers where your dot is which, you've got a red dot. That's where the first barb goes and it shoots straight and it hits the other barb goes on a 45 degree diagonal, like down. So you've got to try and you've got to be like it's perfect if you're front on or back on when you're a little bit to the side. However, you've got to be really accurate, because the barb, the second barb, will miss, and that's what happened. So she, though, in that instance, that instant she got hit, she thought she'd been shot, because it hits with quite an impact, those little barbs, yep and um, and she's dropped the machete. However, me, I've sitting there going, oh shit, I've stuffed up. But I didn't turn the taser off before because we've got spare cartridges. So I actually grabbed the cartridge while it was still cycling to take it off and I tasered myself. Um, so I got zapped in front of 50 people, 50 onlookers, um, I actually tasered myself that's hilarious.
Speaker 1:I um, I left just before we got tasers. Um, and one of the things that I was probably glad was that when we got given um pepper spray, you actually had to, you know, be sprayed, so you knew what it was like. So that way then when you deployed it, you knew what effect you were having on the people you were deploying it on. Um, thankfully, uh, I'd left just as tasers were being deployed. So I, touch wood, have never been tasered and I'm pretty sure that's a good thing. Yeah, just quietly. Yeah, I've been with you. Get to enough issues with pepper spray.
Speaker 1:I've been, you know, standing behind someone and doing a at the time, legal lateral vascular restraint, yep. A week later, not so yeah, and someone goes oh, I'll just spray them, and you know, stupid moves his head and you cop the full force of the spray and that sort of stuff. So I can imagine what it would be like with a taser. I'd be changing what are they called Police pants all the time. I'd probably wet myself each time I with a taser I'd be changing what are they called Police pants all the time. I probably wet myself each time I get a taser. What I want to do is sort of go a little bit into.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I talk about in this podcast is PTSD, and some of the effects that I've had is PTSD, and some of the effects that I've had and because I've been out for such a longer time, you tend to notice it more than when you just leave. Yeah, what about you? Because you didn't go in straight from a young age, you did other things, you had life experience. Yeah, do you feel that you have any signs of PTSD?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely do, damo and I, like we. I think part of the reason that I survived, like even going through the police and being reasonably sane and healthy, was because, basically, damo, he was like we were inseparable, like always talking catch up. If we had a problem, like something happened in the police, we'd just discuss it. And you know it's a burden, you know, spread across two shoulders. You're carrying half the weight, yep, and I'll touch on something that's basically. I mean, this is, and you probably know it as well, when you go further on in your career, you become a little bit complacent, to a sense, or a little bit, you'd like. It doesn't excite you as much like the jobs and I'll yeah, I'll touch on. So there was one when I was in borough law this, my last year in the police and this guy, this mental guy, was carrying on and he um, yeah, we got caught up there. He's mentally ill, he's going off. The family are terrified from him, he'd like he's threatening them with weapons and all that sort of stuff. And anyway, I'm usually quite good at chatting to people. I can talk them into the cage, I'd. You know I don't like using force, but I will if it's necessary and all that sort of thing. I mean, I'd rocked up my pepper spray on my belt, hadn't had pepper spray in it for about three years, like I always use the Party Packs, which is the Mark 9, like it's a little fire extinguisher and I didn't have the taser on, but my partner, she had the taser and she had the Mark 9. And anyway, so we're there and I'm trying to chat to him and he basically gets the shits and he throws a milk crate at me, you know, and I deflect it. We're a good 15 meters away and I deflect it and anyway I kind of thought, uh, I'm not going to be able to talk this guy down, he's just obviously, you know, he's off with the fairies and whichever land he's on, and and I think we're going to have to step this up a notch, and uh, anyway, so I turned to my partner. I said, look, you give me the taser, you hold the pepper spray. So I clipped it on my belt and I was still talking to him and about probably a couple of minutes later he obviously really got the shits that this conversation wasn't going the way he wanted to, and he picked up a tire and a screwdriver and basically bolted towards me and the whole family took off at the front of off, at the front gate of the house. My partner, she, ran with them.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I took a step back and I've gone, I've pulled the taser up, I've pulled it out and I've hit him absolutely. It was textbook, absolutely textbook, and his head to the point that the taser hit him perfectly. His head landed at my feet, so that's how close he was. And then I've just turned to my partner. I said do you want to get back in here? I said, cuff him. And uh, so she's walked in and cuff him. I said I'm going to call the clinic because we've got to get him assessed and you know, we've got to get these barbs out. We pulled the barbs out, um and um, and you know, and then I said all right, we'll take him to the cage. I was on the phone to the clinic and anyway, we put him in the cage. You know people don't usually fight after they've been tased, that they're usually pretty pretty. Uh, compliant, yep, um, and I'll comply, yeah, and so we. So we walked, we put him in the back of the cage and walking to the I was walking to like because I was driving I was sitting there thinking there's no adrenaline, there's nothing, there is nothing at all in my system.
Speaker 2:I am calm as anything. Anyway, I sat in the front seat and my partner, she got in beside me and she turned to me and she goes that has got to be the calmest I've seen anybody in a high risk, like you, you know environment. She goes you didn't even like there was no flutter, there was no you know, um shaking, there's nothing. And I was sitting there going shit, there's something wrong with me, there's something seriously wrong with me. Anyway, so I went down, I checked my Apple watch after my heart hadn't heartbeat, had not skipped a beat. It was exactly the same, it was level, it was just, it was just like it was, you know, a sunday morning, having breakfast, and um, yeah, anyway, I, a couple of weeks later, I actually caught up with dame.
Speaker 2:I was up in darlin for something and I said you want to come and have a beer? And I told him about it and I said, mate, I think there's something seriously wrong with me. I said I should be reacting to this stuff and I'm not. And he just turned to me and he goes it's the same for me. And um, you know, and that that to me I was gone, oh shit, all right. So other people actually it's not just me, because I thought I was mentally ill or something, you know, and I think that's it's part of the you.
Speaker 2:You see so much trauma, uh, in your career as a police officer, um, that you become desensitized to a certain extent and it's just all normal, you know, run-of-the-mill sort of work you're doing, and I think the problem is, though, afterwards. So to talk about the PTSD, I remember when I first left the police and I went to a New Year's Eve celebration and I couldn't relax. I was sitting there looking for people, you know, trying to sabotage, like, blow up this bridge, and all that sort of thing. I was just my partner. Who's my partner now? Miriam, she's absolutely beautiful and she was looking at me and she goes holy. You're just on edge, and I was, because I was just worried.
Speaker 2:You've got a few thousand people at this celebration. There's a bridge. This is a perfect example. Somebody could bloody blow it up and kill a hundred people or a thousand people if they wanted to, and you still get. And you get the heart races for that, like you know, your heart rate goes up, you get the chills. You'll suddenly heart rate goes up. Um, you, you get the chills. You you'll suddenly go into this zone where you think something's going to happen. Um, yeah, so it just it. And I think the more I've been out what seven years now the the longer it goes on. It doesn't really diminish much.
Speaker 1:Um, you can probably comment on that because you've been out for quite a while okay, unfortunately, that's all we have time for for this episode of Behind the Thin Blue Line. I hope you're enjoying my conversation with Ben Schultz and telling us his story of how he got into the police. Join me next Tuesday for the next part of this episode and the next part of this discussion with Ben. Hope you have a good day and I'll chat to you then. Thank you for joining me on Behind the Thin Blue Line, where I have conversations with current and former police officers and they get to tell their stories. I hope you've enjoyed that episode.
Speaker 1:In the next episode we'll again explore the human side of policing through more conversations with police officers from around the world. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're a current or former police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next week.
