Whisper in the Shadows
Welcome to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’, your gateway into the nerve-wracking work of undercover policing. The true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I’m Michael Bates, an ex-undercover police officer, and this was my reality for over two years. If your fascinated by the truth that lies beneath crime shows, if you hunger for the real-life stories that leap beyond the boundaries of fiction, ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ is here to satisfy your curiosity. From infiltrating drug syndicates to living a double life, every episode uncovers a thrilling true story that pitted me against the face of danger. Don’t miss out on the chance to step into my shoes and experience what it takes to walk the thin line between law and crime. Subscribe to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ and join me, as we delve into the gritty world of undercover policing.
Whisper in the Shadows
Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Conversation - Episode 7 with Mark Battersby - Part 1
Have you ever wondered how a young man, with aspiration to be a fighter pilot, ends up serving as a police officer on the gritty streets of Victoria? Join me, Jason Somerville, as I sit down with former Victorian police officer Mark Battersby to unravel his fascinating journey. From the tender age of 19, Mark traded his father's vocation dreams for the unpredictable and often perilous life on the front lines of law enforcement. With candid reflections, Mark shares the mixed emotions from his family, the camaraderie within the force, and the evolution of policing tools and tactics that have transformed the role of officers over the years.
Experience the complexities of modern-day policing as we explore the relentless paperwork, the hierarchical dynamics, and the escalation of risks faced by today's officers. Mark provides a raw and insightful look into the pressures of decision-making under duress and the psychological toll that comes with the job. We delve into heart-pounding moments like tense hostage situations, where discretion and negotiation skills are paramount, and discuss the shift from practical, hands-on training to a more academic approach in police education.
In our conversation with Mark, we don't shy away from the harsh realities of a career in law enforcement, including his personal battle with PTSD. Learn about the constant vigilance that former officers carry with them, even post-retirement, and the critical need for better support systems tailored for mental health recovery. From the emotional challenges of maintaining one's identity outside the force to the importance of peer support and proper transition programs, Mark's story is a powerful testament to the resilience and dedication of those who serve. Stay tuned for our next episode, where we continue to explore Mark's life and the valuable insights he's gained since leaving the force.
If you are interested in contacting the First Responders Support Group in Melbourne that Mark spoke about, details are here - www.tjf.au.
Counselling service mentioned by Mark has a web site at www.redefinelife.com.au and Mark's number is 0400 212 284.
And remember if this podcast has caused anxiety or triggered you in anyway, please reach out to someone and talk.
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Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in the Shadows podcast.
Speaker 1:In each city, in every neighbourhood, on every street they stand tall, those in blue guardians of our community, our protectors. But who are they really? Behind the Thin Blue Line is the podcast that takes you behind the badge, beyond the headlines, and into the hearts of those who serve and protect. We're here to break down barriers and to tear down the walls of misunderstanding. We're here to listen to their stories, their triumphs, their fears. Ever wonder what it's like serving undercover, or what's the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma? Listen as we step into the shoes of those who walk the thin blue line. You have heard my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop. I want to give a voice to all those living amongst us, unseen and unnoticed, who have put their life on the line being a police officer, hopefully to give you, the listener, a glimpse into something you will likely never get to experience Uncover the complex world of law enforcement and the raw human experiences behind the badge. Join me, jason Somerville, your host and a former police officer myself, as we navigate through these stories on Behind the Thin Blue Line. Let's go and meet our next guest line. Let's go and meet our next guest.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line a Whisper in the Shadows podcast, where I explore the human side of policing and law enforcement. I hope you're enjoying our conversations with former and current police officers as I delve into the complexity of policing and how it affects the human side of police. As a person, I'm Jason Somerville and I was a Queensland police officer for nearly 14 years, as well as working undercover for over two of those years. Hopefully you've been listening to my stories of my time undercover through my alter ego, michael Bates. Well, I've decided it's time we heard from other police and let them tell their stories. Today I'm chatting with Mark Battersby, who is a former Victorian police officer. Good afternoon, mark. How are you today?
Speaker 2:G'day, I'm very well.
Speaker 1:Jason, that's good. Thank you for agreeing to join the podcast and for agreeing to have a chat about your policing experiences, yep no worries. Now, what I generally like to do is start off, I guess, with a little bit of a background in regards to when you were a police officer, how long you did it for, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, I joined in 1981 into the Police Academy in Victoria at the tender age of 19. And yeah look, I could say various things, I suppose. Just a quick intro at the moment I did 15 years, nearly 15 years. I was mostly on the front line of general duties, as we called it divvy vans, watch houses, et cetera. I did spend a short time the police air wing.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:There's a story there, but anyway. So that's sort of a very, very brief intro to the policing side of my life, I suppose. No, that's sort of a very, very brief intro to the policing side of my life, I suppose.
Speaker 1:No, that's okay. Was it mainly metropolitan, or did you do country work as well?
Speaker 2:I did some country. Yeah, not far out of Melbourne it would be classless country for a couple of years.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, okay Now. How did you become a police officer? What was the process along there? Did you always want to be a police officer when you were growing up? What did you become a police officer? What was the process along there? Like, did you always want to be a police officer when you were growing up? What did you want to be when you were growing up?
Speaker 2:Well, I think actually I wanted to be a fighter pilot.
Speaker 1:That's very unusual for a young man.
Speaker 2:So I did actually have an interview with the Air Force prior to the police, but I really want, and that wasn't successful at that time I was very young but I was playing football, basically footy, down here in Melbourne, yep, and there was probably half a dozen young guys that hadn't been in the police force for long and we got on pretty well. I liked their company and playing footy and having beers with them and talking to them and they'd talk about what they were doing and I thought, well, that sounds a bit more exciting than doing uni lectures that I was doing in an engineering degree at the time. So, yeah, I applied and the rest is history with that. Now got in and away, we went what?
Speaker 1:what engineering were you doing electrical and communications and what was the plan?
Speaker 2:well, uh, there was a pathway mapped out. Actually my father was fairly high up in Telstra, yep, and so I was always good at mathematics and that sort of thing. So I suppose I was steered into that to end up at Telstra and have a big career there. But the two problems of that, the two main problems, is my father was there, yeah, and the second problem was that I wanted a little bit more, something a bit more. You know, people orientated, I think and the well.
Speaker 1:You couldn't get much more people orientated than policing. Did that cause any issues? Did you, did your father? Was he happy that you you joined the police and didn't follow him in his footsteps?
Speaker 2:no, no, my family weren't happy at all. Don't like the colour blue. Oh, I just think they thought for me it wasn't. You know, it was a bit sort of under standard or under par for me as a person, if you like. Not quite the right fit, but you know, whatever they hadn't had a lot to. You know, I don't have any police in the family and, as I said, I got to know what policing was about to a certain extent through playing footy with these bikes.
Speaker 1:Did they eventually warm to it? Not?
Speaker 2:really, not really. I think the only one that really supported me was my mother, you know, she thought, oh no, he'll be right, but look I was. I think the only one that really supported me was my mother, you know. Yeah, she thought, oh no, he'll be right, but look, I was only 19,. You know, and I think you know, they just saw me as a school kid, you know. Well, yeah, what the heck is he going into this job? For you know.
Speaker 1:I mean, I did it at 21, and I'm pretty sure my parents still thought of me as a school kid too. Mind you, I did look like one, so talk to me a little bit about your journey. So you've gone into the police. How long was the academy at that stage?
Speaker 2:I think about six months.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and then you were probationary for 12 months.
Speaker 2:Yeah, two years, I think in total Two years.
Speaker 1:Okay, you were probationary for 12 months, yeah, two years I think in total years, okay, and where do you able to say, or do you feel like you want to say, where that, where you were stationed, what parts of of?
Speaker 2:Mel, oh yeah, I can give you where I was names, the bosses that I hated, all the rest of, whatever you want. So what areas did you work in? I will tell you. But I think this is a key to my recovery, that I'm very honest, yep, with myself and I've had to go through, uh, 12-step addiction programs to the alcohol and all the rest of it. And the only way to really get through and recover with, you know, have a strong recoveries, to be honest, but, anyway, um, yeah, look, I was in the city for a while.
Speaker 2:I did a training station out in the outer east. Um, uh, yeah, in the city, I mean just to go through that, uh, without getting into what happened there or didn't or the rest of it. Yeah, um, all right, so I ended up going to hawthorne, I think I don't know whether you know where these places are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I've lived in Melbourne, so I've got a fair idea For a couple of years and then I got it in my head Look well, basically it was like you know, young bloke, you know there's all these opportunities in this sort of job, I'm going to go for it, you know. So I ended up applying for a few things and I got the air wing, the police air wing Now they're going into it too much at the moment. But unfortunately my alcoholism was roaring. I didn't really realise that. I'm sure some people must have known and I ended up drinking on a training exercise, so getting violently drunk, not violently drunk, very drunk. And there's a story of all that. And of of course they decided it wasn't good to have on-call police air wing people, you know, pissed at home.
Speaker 1:Did you actually have a pilot's licence?
Speaker 2:No, no, so I was trained to be an air observer. I think they called it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So, air crew, you know learning how to do rescues and searches. That sort of thing was probably more prominent then than actual police work. I think they do. They've merged into more of the you know tracking cars around and that sort of stuff than they did then so was that?
Speaker 1:was that a helicopter or was that fixed wing back in those days? Yeah, helicopter, mainly helicopter. Okay, fair enough. I um one of the joys of, I guess, my policing experience wasn't actually me working, but because I was a police officer, when I was in LA I got to do a shift, an eight hour shift with a helicopter crew in LA and one of the police forces there and that was eye opening. That was really, really eye opening to the point where we were actually getting shot at. They said don't worry, we're a little bit too high. They do a lot of shooting over there. They do, yes, at each other and at police. All right so.
Speaker 2:So just to round that out, so I ended up out at my last few years or so. I was out at a station called mural bark, yes, and that's where a bit of country came in. I was seconded to a linda up in the hills for a couple of years.
Speaker 1:Okay, that was yeah, what did you enjoy about policing?
Speaker 2:well, I always enjoyed. I went in basically to save the world, as you do, and, young men, we can do anything. We're fit, strong. It was great to run down crooks. It was good to be. I really liked the fact that the general duties, as they call it, which really underplays really what it is in my mind. So you're out in a divvy van, you get the call, you know somebody's stabbing someone or trying to on the street and you're the men to go and keep the peace. You know, grab the crooks, throw them in the divvy van and you know, give everyone a big kiss and a hug and then go and do all the paperwork, which no one wanted to do, of course. Well, I didn't want to do it. It's quite capable. No, no one wanted to do, of course, well, I didn't want to do it.
Speaker 1:It's quite capable. No one ever wanted to do paperwork.
Speaker 2:No Well, on reflection, you know how stupid is it. I mean, probably half the time you're doing paperwork. I mean that's not what you're there for. And I've spoken to some female friends of mine that weren't in the job, but they said you know, we'd have been quite happy to have the role We'd be hired. We'd be at the station you come in, dump your crooks off and all that, and they'd do the paperwork. I mean, that's a very simple, simple view of it, but you know.
Speaker 1:There are ways that I'm sure they could do. Yeah, you're right. Probably about 50% of your time is spent doing paperwork for you know the other 50% of time of dealing with dead shits. Basically, I was going to ask you something in regards to that. Oh, so back in those days that would have been before we had things like capsicum spray and tasers and that sort of stuff as well, so it just would have been a baton in your wit to try and calm some of these people down, headlocked down on the ground, handcuffs.
Speaker 2:It was pretty urgent. Most of the time there was usually a bit of talking beforehand. If they responded to a bit of talking, then that's okay. If they don't bang, you know, and that's. I really feel really sorry for them these days because they've got so much shit on their belt and everything. I don't know how they walk.
Speaker 1:It's very hard to sit in a police car, that's for sure. Especially when you've got a little 5'3", 40kg female who has to put all that stuff on her belt. That's why they've gone to the vests now, so they can get some of that stuff off their belts. All right, so did you stay at Constable the whole way through? Did you get?
Speaker 2:promoted. I was a senior, I took promotion, did exams for senior Connie and, quite frankly, the way I viewed it, I saw yeah, sergeant, may have been a consideration, but really after that you know they're all wankers and just trying to chop each other's heads off to get to the top. And I joined the job to be a copper, not a management person or whatever, not a corporate climber other's heads off to get to the top. And I joined the job to be a copper, not a you know, not a I don't know management person or whatever not a corporate climber.
Speaker 1:Um, so that would have, and you know, depending on where you are in queensland, if you're a senior connie, you get this some managerial roles. I mean, there was, you know, some stations, whereas the senior connie you were the, the officer in charge, whereas other stations it was a sergeant. Did it work the same way where you were?
Speaker 2:Yeah, correct. Yeah, yeah, I mean, when I was in the country sometimes I'd be on my own, yeah Well, probably half the time, whether it be day shift or some of the evening shifts. We tried to pair up on the evening shifts, yep, but basically, yeah, senior Connie is an unsung leader in the field. Really Everybody looks to you when the shit hits the fan, because they're all very junior, yep, that's right.
Speaker 1:And when it doesn't go right, everyone up above you tends to back down the hill, yep. So just talking about the fact that you know you worked one up a lot and and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we didn't have the news cycles when I was uh in in the police, and so you wouldn't have had them. Newbies, I was 10 years after you. Uh, do you think that it's more dangerous today to be a police officer and and you know there's a there's more requirement for people to work two up rather than than the ability to work one up, um, or do you think that's a a figment of the 24-hour news cycle?
Speaker 2:There might have been a couple of questions there, but I think you're asking do you think it's more dangerous now? Just full stop. Yeah, I think it's a loaded question in a lot of ways. I would say yes, but I would say the main reason for that is because they're so worried about health and safety and everything that they've risked managing themselves out of a job basically not the rank and file. We're talking about the management and the way they manage. They just don't seem to be able to. In my day it was quite evident, the way we were trained and everything, that if you had a head on your shoulders once you got your experience, you're allowed to use discretion. You know that's what Mark says, and what Mark says goes, because he's been taken away these days.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, oh, absolutely. You can see that, yeah, and yeah it must be. Well, it is excruciating because I talk to plenty that have got out over the last little while, because I'm part of a group that meet every fortnight here for support, because it's just the PTSD and the ramifications that are rampant, yep, and so I help out with that. I actually work as a counsellor now. We'll talk more about that later.
Speaker 1:I want to touch on that. I want to come back to that because the discussions that we've had offline.
Speaker 2:I was very good, actually, I'm very verbose and very good at connecting with people. So most of the time, even if it was a gunpoint, I'd make a connection and resolve the situation. Everybody gets to live, but there's not a lot of coppers full stop that have that attitude. You know they just I think a lot now probably I hesitate to say this, but there might be a better way, but never mind, they don't quite have the brainpower Now. Maybe it's more to do with the training. Like it's a higher level, a higher level of thinking, to walk into a situation. There's somebody that's quite off their nut, obviously you know.
Speaker 2:One I was just thinking of is where this fella. He was in a unit He'd locked himself in, he'd pulled petrol over himself and over the head of a woman who was there standing beside him. And I got to probably about 10, 15, 20 minutes in. I had him released the hostage just by talking to him and, um, yeah, had him isolated and uh, there was a lot of other coppers there. But to cut a long story short, in the end, um, I told the boss what I was going to do. He didn't like it, in fact, he didn't want me to do it initially, which was to take my gun off, which I did, and I've done it before, I've done this before. This is not bullshit. Yeah, and the other fellas that see me do it, before they took their gun off, I handpicked two or three others and we went.
Speaker 2:Of course, we grabbed him in the end when we got close. Yeah, him in the end when we got close, yeah, but the boss, he said well, you know, you're not, certainly not going to get any medals or anything, mark, because my write-up will be nothing like what happened. And this is, you know, this is the honesty of the that happens in those organizations. I'm sure it hasn't got any better. That you know. Really, the people you know inspector and above or whatever they are, you've got on there they're about their own ass, they're about their own self-importance. They have no concern at all for the welfare of the people underneath them no, and they're generally speaking.
Speaker 1:You know, and, and you know that that rings true with with the people I've spoken to.
Speaker 2:So look what I did you know, when I relay this, I mean I get comments of people, like you know, fairly high up in counselingselling psychology and they say, well, that's very brave, but you know, not everybody's capable of doing that and I accept that. I accept that. But you know, again, I make the call, hey.
Speaker 1:I made the call. That's right, but I was just going to circle back to a point you made where you said that you know the brain power or the high function you need to use to to be able to make those decisions and be able to talk people down. Do you think it's a fact that that they don't have it? Or do you think it's a fact that they haven't been trained to use it? Because I know, when I went through and I was one of the first 400 after the Fitzgerald inquiry, so you know, we were taught all these wonderful university things, but one of the things we were taught was how to make decisions on our own and we were given training along the lines of if someone was trying to commit suicide, then you know trigger words, not, not what, not to say what you can say trying to talk people down, that sort of stuff. I don't actually know if they're taught those sorts of things in today's day and age, because at school and at university now you're taught.
Speaker 1:Remember this, remember this it's going to be in your test remember this it's not as a free thinking yeah, it's not a free thinking, uh education anymore, and we're getting people from universities going to policing now, because that's what makes policing professional yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, um, an interesting experience, hey, um. But you know, as far as the danger, I think that it's just as dangerous. I mean, I dealt with people. Uh, they might not have been on ice, but they're on something else. Yeah, there's certainly plenty of alcohol around and weapons and all that sort of stuff, but, um, I mean, that was one example, but there were plenty of other times when you did nip it in the bud pretty early, because you have a few of good strong fellas overpowering people, you know. And that's where I said look, I've got two daughters and a wife. I love women, but you know, they shouldn't be on the front line, they shouldn't be on a divvy van. It's just crazy, absolutely crazy.
Speaker 1:Fair enough. I know quite a few female coppers that would disagree with that. I know quite a few.
Speaker 2:I'm sure they might disagree. They don't have the strength. They don't have the physical strength, they just don't. They might be the odd one out of one in a million, okay.
Speaker 1:Fair enough Now. So 15 years. So mid-90s would have been when you finally pulled the pin. Yeah, yeah, about 96.
Speaker 2:mid 90s would have been when you finally pulled the pin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that early 90s period there was very much a shift in, I guess, from outside and from police in the other states. Because I'd just been sworn in. I actually did an undercover job based with Victorian, so I went and spent just been sworn in. I actually did an undercover job based with victorian, so victorian crims, so I went and spent some time in victoria and and with the homicide squad. Um, it seemed to very, very much a shoot first, ask questions later, type thing in the in the early 90s I think it's an individual thing.
Speaker 2:I had a mindset where I told myself I had the conversation with myself that everyone lives. Mark goes somewhere and everyone lives. So, with that goal in mind, that's what I did. I'd do everything I could, but still maintaining my own safety and that of others, obviously. And so, you know, I just found that, unless you had the worst, worst narcissistic crook you'd imagine and I had, obviously you can make a connection with people. They're not really feeding you. So, mate, if you don't put that gun down, I'm coming across to fucking grab it out of your hands, you know. And so it's all psychology, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It is. But I guess in that particular part of history, if you want to call it that, there were a lot of crims in Melbourne that were prepared to shoot you even if you did try and come and take it out of their hands.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there probably wasn't as many as purported.
Speaker 1:I don't think, but anyway, and that's sort of where I was getting to with that question. Was that a particularly violent time, with people who didn't respect police in the criminal?
Speaker 2:Well, we obviously had the bombing and the execution of the two from Wall Street, which were pretty close together, Yep, and that definitely affected well at all levels, but particularly if you're out on a divvy van, you suddenly approached calls that would have been almost benign prior as pretty high level risk.
Speaker 1:What sort of impact does that have on you personally?
Speaker 2:well, I think it's what policing does anyway. I mean, eventually, you know you're on high alert 24 7 you you never come down. You know some, there's always somebody somewhere that's trying to get you do you still have that.
Speaker 1:Hyper not sensitivity is probably not the right word, but uh, hyper awareness, hypervigilance, vigilance, rather, I don't think hypervigilance, from my understanding, is where you virtually don't sleep much and that sort of thing, whereas I have.
Speaker 2:I sleep like a baby I'm, in fact, better than a baby, probably now. I do have my seven, eight hours sleep, and it's just. That's non-negotiable. The world can go bye-byes until I wake up for breakfast, but it's taken me a while to get to that. You know, taken me a while to get to that, but what you're talking about is still there. In fact, there's an example just today. You know, I'm driving down the road and it's very windy here in Melbourne and I'm noticing all this debris everywhere. And then I look up because I'm looking at trees and things, you know, yep, and I see this branch has straddled a power line, and then I see power lines down and people are just streaming past, you know, streaming past. I mean this is a very dangerous situation, you know. So I call it in, in.
Speaker 2:I didn't do much more and the fire brigade turned up and blah, blah, blah so I guess what I'm saying is that and you might have this as well, I'm sure you do but, um, I notice things out and about that. You know the average person just doesn't see, or if they see something, I don't know what they're looking at.
Speaker 1:You know that sort of stuff do you find yourself looking around more? And this is a question, uh, that, um, when I drive, I'll, I'll. It's like I'm still in a police car and you're looking at everything that's going on. I still look as I drive past, I still look at cars to see what the driver's like or who's in the passenger seat, and that sort of thing, and I'm doing it subconsciously who's in? The passenger seat. Yeah, and I'm doing it subconsciously, mm, do you?
Speaker 2:still have that sort of reaction. There might be a subconscious, but I think mine's conscious a lot of the time, you know you, just I'm happy with that because it's not going to go away and I think it's actually a good thing, you know. Oh so do I. I agree the safety of others and yourself, your family.
Speaker 1:It was just brought up to me the other day that I do it a lot.
Speaker 2:You've got to be careful, you know, but I'm not an idiot. So I've actually followed cars down the street that have been all over the place, but they're going at a slow speed. And when I've got through and been talking to the copper at D24, I introduce myself, so they know who I am and the observations they go yeah, that's fair enough. And I said, listen, if they take off, mate, I'm in my private car, my Mazda. I'm not following them. You know I'm not following at speed, so I'm not. You know, I have been there and we'll probably get into that later of how I was really affected and there was a time when, um well, I was a madman. I was a madman for a few years, for sure I'll come to that.
Speaker 1:So so you've done 15 years, you've. You've got to senior connie, uh, all in uniform. So mostly in uniform, yeah yep, so what prompted you to leave?
Speaker 2:what prompted you to leave? Well, I couldn't get out of bed. I was so badly PTSD with depression and everything which they didn't call it PTSD then. They just called it job stress.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what the GP called it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I was bullied to resign actually basically came to me on my deathbed, if you like, or sickbed, and said you need to, you need to resign, son, you know, and if you, if you, if you don't, we'll, we'll fight you at court on the uh, you know, on the compensation or what.
Speaker 1:So I had some real assholes, yeah I do, I and look, I appreciate this is sensitive to you and personal to you, but can you go into that? Do you feel like going into that a little bit more? Are you able to go into that a little bit more? In regards to how did you get to that point of I don't want to get out of bed? I'm assuming was it at home, was it in hospital?
Speaker 2:No, no, it was at home yeah.
Speaker 1:When you were at home.
Speaker 2:How did you get to that point? No, no, it was the same. Yeah, yeah, when you were at home. Well, I believe, on reflection now, that 18 months into the job, I went to a fatal involving a two-year-old girl. Yeah, and the other thing that happened with that, I was with a partner, but I was right in the centre of the CBD in Melbourne, working out of Russell Street, and the D24 operator was calling for backup and not one person came back to give us any support. And they would have been there and they were in the city.
Speaker 1:Was there a debrief about it afterwards and was there a reason for it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, plenty of piss. No, no such thing as a debrief, then. No such thing. As I said, there was absolutely no concern for the welfare of the individual officers. Whatever you went to. Yeah, there might have been the odd sergeant around that took a bit of interest, but usually not really, and so, but I mentioned that because I believe that was the start of my PTSD.
Speaker 1:Now, looking back, so you said that was 18 months in, so you've carried that for 15, 14 years yeah and everything else, and I'm sure I'm not the only couple that does that.
Speaker 2:Oh no, it sort of culminated in, eventually, if you like, the one that really did it all was an internal thing. And you know, look, I was drinking on duty. Eventually I was stuffed, you know, and any opportunity that came up that's what I was doing. So I'm not going to go into all that right now, but basically I was charged with drinking on duty and the other fellow there after him for some other things as well apparently.
Speaker 2:But anyway, but eventually, about 1 o'clock in the morning, we pulled up this bloke because he just about ran into us with his lights off and what so ever, and yeah, I ended up with. I just wanted to. I was just going to do a breath test but I ended up rolling around the roadway with this prick and he had his hand on my gun butt and he was trying to get my gun out of the holster. So the only thing oh, that was another one like a support, my partner there. I don't know why he wouldn't come and help me, but he wouldn't. He got on the radio. And I don't know why he wouldn't come and help me but he wouldn't. He got on the radio. I don't know why he bothered doing that, because we're in the middle of nowhere, but anyway, yeah. So I just had to belt the hell out of this bloke. Fortunately I am pretty strong and once I get going, there's no stopping me. So I just bashed him in the head until he took his hand off the gun.
Speaker 2:But that sort of did it in. As much as I'm going. This is. You know, I've got a young family. This is bullshit, you know, I've had enough of this stuff, you know. But with that it's not that easy, because you know, that's all I knew since I was 19. So what am I going to do to feed my family? You know?
Speaker 1:And that's very true. So from that point to when they've come to you and said you know, don't fight us, you're resigning. Did you have much of a thought process about what am I going to do, did you? Or was it just a thought in the back of your mind? And that thought, because it was in your back of mind, kept you in the in the job?
Speaker 2:Oh look, I was just struggling to live one shift or one day at a time, yeah, so you know, obviously. Well, not, obviously you don't know, but I had thoughts of you know, returning to the engineering degree, which I eventually did. Yeah, so it was really, until my system said you're not going anywhere, you're certainly not going back into that. Yeah, you're certainly not going back into that, nothing really. And the drinking on duty. But even then, see, they looked at it like, oh, what an arsehole, he's drinking on duty. Well, they were probably drinking as well, or had done in their career, Turned around and said the best way out of this is to charge Mark, and he's a scapegoat.
Speaker 1:I know of at least one homosquad squad detective who was drinking on duty and ended up crashing a car at the top of St Kilda Road, but you probably remember that, because that would have been just before you left, I reckon. So there were a lot of people that were doing it. You know the homicide squad in Melbourne. They had a, a soft drink fridge. There was no soft drink in it. No, it was just full of beer and drinks at the end of the shift. Um, so so you've, you've, you've come to this conclusion. Um, can you expand a little bit? And you don't have to, obviously, because I appreciate, uh, you know the effects. But when they've come to you, what was it? An inspector, was it? You know it's a higher commissioned officer? Did they just come in?
Speaker 2:and say, I mean, they're all involved, but basically the senior sergeant at my station was given the job to resolve things. I guess I just put it that I was bullied because, you know, I don't really remember much about that period of time. Okay, in hindsight there was no. Oh, mark, it's terrible, you know you're sick from the job. It was like, how do we make ourselves, you know how do we make him disappear?
Speaker 1:you know and not have come back on us. Yeah, and that's a common story that you hear from people, especially up to about the late 90s to early 2000s, and it still happens now. But I think there's more of an awareness from some senior police of what you would have been going through if it had been today. Um, it doesn't mean that they definitely would have accepted it. Okay, so the period for you to leave how, what was that? Was it, you know? A month, two months? What sort of time?
Speaker 2:I was a bit longer. My memory is I had about nine months sick leave or something. Yep, not my sleeve, so it took a while, yep, and so, look, it is a bit cloudy. You know, I resigned, I think I just eventually went and did some casual work or something During that time, decided, well, and talking with my wife, of course, still young enough to go to university, and maybe this engineering degree might be it and be the future.
Speaker 1:Did you go back in that nine months?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, this would have been maybe a year after I'd resigned or something like that. Okay, and they accepted me back into second year because I'd already done a couple of years Yep, and so I went right through that over a few years. You know, full time Yep Wasn't easy, for probably a couple of main reasons. One of them is that any study at that level is, you know, difficult. They don't make it easy. You've got to pass exams and all the rest of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a bit of a bugger when it comes to education, isn't it yeah?
Speaker 2:And so there was that and, I think, just loss of identity. I really didn't know who I was In hindsight, and that's what we try and do now. What we're aiming for I think we've still got a long way to go is that, you know, police, like a lot of other areas, service areas need a proper transition program Definitely, and they need to be led through it, you know, as much as they want to, of course, and tailor to the individual, because you do, you really suffer a loss of identity and I think, particularly in a job like that and well, for me, I mean, there's a bit more awareness there I have very little support because people around you, they just they're going. What the hell is going on? Yep, what is wrong with him? You know, like you know, just go, maybe my wife you know that was my first wife with him. You know, like you know, just go maybe my wife you know that was my first wife. But you know, go up the street and get another job and she'll be sweet, you know, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1:So, in regards to that, that loss of identity and this is something that I'm exploring at the moment in regards to the, the counselling that I'm going through is we're talking about that for a multitude of reasons, because it manifests itself in other, you know, in my current career. Do you think that it's because of the type of people that go into policing that they pin themselves to that identity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I think it could be anything. But you know, to do with helping others and so on, yep, dale, I believe, are in that bag, and yeah, we are. Well, I can only speak for myself. I've met plenty of others. You know, we're passionate and we just give our all. We give our all, and I think it was a job that required that. It wasn't even those who pretended to say, oh no, it's just a job and I'll just do this.
Speaker 2:But you know, along comes the next job. That's a multiple fatality or something you know, or whatever it is. And you know, you don't just go home and say what's for dinner, love. You know, I just did my nine to five and I've signed off. Beauty, you know, yeah, You're very invested, you know. And you know I had a bloke who I actually knew fairly well, that I worked with in the younger days, and he became the head of the what do they call it? The president of the police association, yeah, and he said oh, mark, you're just too invested and I'm going. You're full of shit. You know, what are you supposed to do? So, unless you're a complete narcissist maybe he was but you know, we're not just sitting in a factory, you know painting one box blue and one box red.
Speaker 1:You know no, but the expectation is. At the end of your shift you just go home and put it all behind you.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know whether the I don't know no from the organisation I'm talking about. Perhaps I don't know, mate. Look, as far as that's concerned, you know, my focus is on, obviously, my recovery and also the recovery of others that have, walking a similar track to me, you know, been popped out, pushed out. As far as the police force goes, they can look after, I'm not interested.
Speaker 1:No, no, no.
Speaker 2:Sorry, but I just want to make that clear that some people talk about. Oh, how can we change the management of the police force? We won't. It's like the army and the military. It's a mindless machine. It'll be like this in another hundred years. It won't change.
Speaker 1:No, that's true. I guess the point I was making is you. You were saying that you know people who have a normal job. It's not like you just finish at five o'clock and you go home and it's not worry about it. What I'm saying is, though, the expectation of the organization has been for many years that at the end of your shift, you just clock off and you go home and you shouldn't worry about it. But we know, because of the fact that you, the jobs that you go to, that triple fatality. You're going to be thinking about that, maybe not today, but in a week's time, in 12 months' time, in 20 years' time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's interesting with that because you know some people call it like a bucket and you're putting water into it for whatever incident it is that really does affect you or affect anyone really. So I could see that probably a good 10 years probably before I got out. Before I finished, my bucket was full. I was just like a hulk of a mess, just a shell of a man. You know how on earth I did the job? I don't know. I don't know how on earth I did the job.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know Well you obviously had I don't know if crutch is the right word, but you had things that you used to get you through that and for people who don't understand why that's necessary. They're never going to understand, but it's that type of job that they're the sorts of things that people use to get them through every day.
Speaker 1:That's all we have time for on today's episode. Uh, join us next week for part two of this conversation with mark battersby, where we start to discuss what he actually did after he left the police and delve more into things like support groups and some interesting finds that he's made about himself. We'll look forward to speaking to you next week. Thank you for joining me on Behind the Thin Blue Line, where I have conversations with current and former police officers and they get to tell their stories. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. In the next episode, we'll again explore the human side of policing through more conversations with police officers from around the world. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're a current or former police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next week.
