Whisper in the Shadows
Welcome to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’, your gateway into the nerve-wracking work of undercover policing. The true stories of a real-life undercover cop. I’m Michael Bates, an ex-undercover police officer, and this was my reality for over two years. If your fascinated by the truth that lies beneath crime shows, if you hunger for the real-life stories that leap beyond the boundaries of fiction, ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ is here to satisfy your curiosity. From infiltrating drug syndicates to living a double life, every episode uncovers a thrilling true story that pitted me against the face of danger. Don’t miss out on the chance to step into my shoes and experience what it takes to walk the thin line between law and crime. Subscribe to ‘Whispers in the Shadows’ and join me, as we delve into the gritty world of undercover policing.
Whisper in the Shadows
Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Conversation - Episode 7 with Mark Battersby - Part 2
What would you do if the very skills that kept you safe on the job became the source of your greatest challenges off the clock? Join us on "Behind the Thin Blue Line" as we continue our heartfelt conversation with Mark Battersby, a former police officer who bravely shares his turbulent transition into civilian life. Mark reveals the struggle with identity despite having a degree and finding work in industrial automation and teaching, and how management challenges in these roles often overshadowed those in the police force. His candid discussion about battling unresolved PTSD that culminated in a significant breakdown in his 50s offers a raw and emotional glimpse into his journey of recovery and self-reflection.
Discover how Mark transformed his pain into a mission to help others, navigating the path of recovery and self-identity with resilience. We explore the vital roles of humor, faith, and support systems in healing, highlighting the importance of effective communication and finding the right people to talk to during tough times. Mark also shares his journey to sobriety and the crucial role of counseling in his recovery, reminding us that temporary jobs, such as his stint in traffic management, can serve as important stepping stones towards more fulfilling careers.
In this episode, we also shed light on the power of community and support, detailing the journey of forming and growing a support group for those in need, and the aspirations of expanding it nationwide. We introduce "Redefine Life," a counseling service dedicated to supporting first responders and delve into the realities of policing, including its toll on personal lives and the importance of mental health support. Tune in to gain practical advice for those in the force and insights into the noble yet demanding profession of policing. Don't miss out on this profound conversation that emphasizes resilience, recovery, and the strength found in community.
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Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in the Shadows podcast. In each city, in every neighbourhood, on every street they stand tall, those in blue guardians of our community, our protectors. But who are they really? Behind the Thin Blue Line is the podcast that takes you behind the badge, beyond the headlines, and into the hearts of those who serve and protect. We're here to break down barriers and to tear down the walls of misunderstanding. We're here to listen to their stories, their triumphs, their fears. Ever wonder what it's like serving undercover, or what's the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma? Listen as we step into the shoes of those who walk the thin blue line. You have heard my true stories of what it's really like to be an undercover cop. I want to give a voice to all those living amongst us, unseen and unnoticed, who have put their life on the line being a police officer, hopefully to give you, the listener, a glimpse into something you will likely never get to experience Uncover the complex world of law enforcement and the raw human experiences behind the badge. Join me, jason Somerville, your host and a former police officer myself, as we navigate through these stories on Behind the Thin Blue Line.
Speaker 1:Let's go and meet our next guest. Welcome back to part two of this conversation with Mark Battersby. Last week we just finished discussing with Mark how he felt and what led to him leaving. Let's now continue that conversation as we talk about what he did after he left the police. What he did after he left the police Now, okay, so you've left, you've done your degree. Was that a walk into a new career or were you still sort of lost and unsure about that identity?
Speaker 2:I was still a bit unsure because by the time I got through that I'd sort of recovered a lot. And of course, I'm a people person and I'm working surrounded by what my wife calls some geeks. You know, they're all technical people, yep and while I've got that ability. Obviously I'm good at maths or whatever logic um, they're not my people. You know yep and um so I'm working through that I did actually get work.
Speaker 2:uh, I got work as a teacher at a TAFE, I got work as an engineer in industrial automation. So these companies were German companies making special sensors for industrial automation. So it was all sorts of applications.
Speaker 1:Like SICK or IFM or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sick was one of them. Yeah, and yeah, look, it was interesting. But some of the people in management were about twice as worse as the people in management of the police force, if you can believe that.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I can't.
Speaker 2:They were tin men, absolutely no heart at all, nothing, nothing and anyway. But as I'm recovering more and more, and then I sort of had another dip again. I believe that was because really everything was unresolved, yep, and so it seems to me and it happened to me got to about 50-odd, because I'm 62 now. We got to about 50-odd and my whole system just exploded, you know, and I ended up going into psych wards and all kinds of things for that period, um, but you know what? All that, all those bags of shit, are now being used to help others and I'm, you know, I'm working my way through a diploma in counseling, yep, and I really enjoy. I enjoy the fact that you know, uh, you know, obviously work with, with, and we help each other, other counsellors, we talk about our cases and things like that. But I have this ability to just grasp things because I've had so much experience with people. You know what's going on.
Speaker 1:So you did 10 years in that electronic sort of space. Yeah, something like that and a few other things thrown in there. And then you've had, pardon me, the unresolved PTSD come up and that's given you. Now I don't know whether you want to go into that in a little more detail or not, or we just move on from that. It's up to you whether you want to talk about it or not?
Speaker 2:Bill 1.20 Well, I can. I just move through it on the day and see how we go, what usually happens. Yeah, look, there's some things that I would like the two-year-old girl. I mean, I can talk about it, but I'll start crying.
Speaker 1:Look one of the questions towards you. Well, that's that.
Speaker 2:But the other things when you're talking about your life's threatened and that, well, as I was talking about before, I could do that. I'll give you an opportunity to talk about stories.
Speaker 1:I guess what I wanted to talk about was that that, that period you said where, where it all fell apart again, um, you know what period did that take for you to to come out of that that sort of trough?
Speaker 2:so what was the last bit?
Speaker 1:you said what, what, what, how long did it take you?
Speaker 2:you said in about your 50s, that sort of all. How long was it? Probably a journey, like it's an ongoing journey oh no, I realized that, but to get back to where you're sort of like working again, etc.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well then after that, um, yeah, as I said, 50 or so, something like that when I was 50 or so. So, yeah, it all blew up and I was probably on the back. Of the trigger was, um, probably effectively, I was sacked from this, uh, from a company I was working for, and it seemed to be a set-up and all that sort of stuff, but anyway, that triggered me into my worth and ID and all that sort of stuff, self-worth.
Speaker 2:I thought, well, you know, I remember actually going home. Oh, that was when that was before. I wasn't actually sacked at that stage, but we're on the way. That's what they were trying to do. And I just walked into my lounge room. No one was home and I just bawled my eyes out yeah I can't do this anymore you know, this is just.
Speaker 1:This is so unfair and I need help you're not the only person that's done that, because I'm 54 and I've got to say, in the last couple of years, similar sorts of things and I've done exactly the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I'm not ashamed of crying or whatever. But anyway, sometimes some people don't want to go into that space, but it is an important part of the recovery. It is.
Speaker 1:And I guess my point is that it's not just you. I've been there. Yeah, I understand that.
Speaker 2:That and for people listening to this and watching this.
Speaker 1:They need to understand that there are other people that are, that are in that space. So if they're in that space, they're not alone. It's not just them no.
Speaker 2:so what we're hoping for is, uh sort of, it's not really diverting, but going into the recovery and the help and supports. Yep, I want to be one of the people that an ex-copper or even a serving copper can say let's ring Mark, because he's been through a lot of this and he knows what to do. I'm a trained counsellor, you know, or I'm developing that.
Speaker 1:Because if you ask me when did you get into that, then so, when did you get into that, then so, when did you get into that? Counselling from oh, this is only in the last 12 months.
Speaker 2:So I've just completed not long completed all the theory and I'm at a counselling practice Yep, a group of other. We call ourselves provisional counsellors, yes, and it's almost like going to an academy. It's really great. You know we can. You know we have meetings where we can talk to it about our cases and with our, you know, supervisor, this woman's just, you know, fantastic she really is. She's got a real thing about um, training people.
Speaker 1:So a trainer that's not just ticking the box does she have an emergency services background, or not really, but she is she does do some work.
Speaker 2:She does some speaking and she's a keynote keynote speaker as well. So she does do some work. She does some speaking. She's a keynote speaker as well. So she does some speaking with the Victoria Police, because it's interesting. They've obviously recognised they have to do something, but unfortunately most of the people in management are still going oh, we'll give them this lip service and see if that makes them happy. And I know that sounds, but that's my take on it. All you know. Do you know why know? Do you know why?
Speaker 1:I don't know how much you know about rugby league being an AFL state in the rugby league. So there's the CTE, the rain disease which comes from being repeatedly hit in the head. You know it's big in afl as well, but in in in the nrl they've got to the point now where you're playing a physical game where if you even look like you've been hit in the head, they're penalizing it. The reaction to that is the reaction. That reaction has come about because for so long they haven't done anything and now they've gone the complete opposite direction in regards to it and they've, they've diluted what it is, and I think the police at the moment is, uh, at that tipping point of, oh, we've got to say the right things, um, because if they were to go the next step, then the people who would sue and all those sorts of things becomes unsustainable and people wouldn't be police officers anymore because, well, I don't recommend anybody do it, quite frankly.
Speaker 2:I do have a question. That's what I'm going to explain.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to ask. One of the questions I was going to ask is would you recommend if someone came to you and said I want to be a police officer, would you recommend it?
Speaker 2:Well, the first question I'd ask them is why? Right? So I had my counselling hat on and I wouldn't put my you know what I think on them, although I used to when I was sort of quite unhappy with them. But you know, I'd just say are you aware? You know of the dangers and the impacts. You know most police end up with PTSD. Yep.
Speaker 1:Are you aware of that?
Speaker 2:You know, is that something you're willing to sacrifice and all that sort of stuff? So that's what I'd do. But I mean, if you want to know what it was not that well, it's a little while ago now, but uh, it was. Do you want your life fucked in one year or two years?
Speaker 2:uh, yeah, good point um yeah, but anyway, um, so we're talking about, you know, recovery, yep, uh, and well, at least how I recovered, yeah, so eventually in about 2014, I think, as I say, about 10 years ago now I was in a, so I'd been seeing counsellors or whatever to know about it, psychologists or whatever, in a psych ward and I'd been violently arrested by the police a couple of times.
Speaker 2:They'd come to my home and even my wife would say no, she was concerned, but she thought it was an overreaction. But in talking to them and this is perhaps where you know a reflection of where the police forces got to, on the type of people they'd say things like and I think I was arrested illegally, actually under the Mental Health Act, but they'd say things like well, mark's a fairly big bloke, he's an ex-copper from back in the 80s and if he goes off, you know he'll destroy half the suburb. He's a threat to everyone. But it was all potential, you know, and I am, you know I'm old school. I'm pretty fearsome when I get going. If I want to, you know, make my point at somebody.
Speaker 1:Do you use your police voice?
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I get in trouble. So often it's like don't yell. So I'm not yelling, I'm just making my police voice. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, look, you know a human can get around it as well. And I use a lot of humor with my wife. It's only my wife and I at home now and I'll sometimes just joke around with her. You know I should arrest her and take her to bed and things like that.
Speaker 1:She doesn't mind that. She doesn't mind that. Well, that's good.
Speaker 2:This is not what I was going to say. No, I can't think of the rating. This is not a kids only hour. No, no, no, no. This is an 18 plus. It's all good. I didn't think so. It's all good, I didn't think so it's all good.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you were talking, you've been arrested, you've had all these things happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but I did want to take that up where I was. So I was sitting in the sidewalk and I was effectively waiting to die. I sort of knew that. You know when things aren't good. And I couldn't eat. I hadn't eaten for quite a while, so I was half my body weight.
Speaker 2:It was catatonic, I think the word they used.
Speaker 2:So I was shaking and I couldn't get a cognitive thought and this is the spiritual side that comes with me I asked God for help and I said you've got to help me. And so after a few days I wouldn't say I was 100%, but I was on the way I was talking, I was walking around, the staff was frightened, the shit out of them, because last time they saw me I was very different. And so I'd say, you know, through, you know I'm going to talk more about what happened and the other keys, I think, to my recovery, but definitely leaning into a loving and graceful God that I knew had my back and that I could lean into him and he was going to help me recover. And I wanted to recover, you know. So doing a lot of talk like we're doing now. So I couldn't find anyone to talk to. I know that's unbelievable, but you know I had psychologists. They'd run out of the room and all that and you know now on reflection, I can see that you know these are people that you know.
Speaker 2:Now, on reflection, I can see that you know these are people that you know. They're very young, they go to university and they become a practitioner in their profession. You know they've been nowhere near where I've been in life.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:And I've been letting it all out. Yeah, yeah, there's blood pissing everywhere and there's fucking three kids in this bloody car one night, at four o'clock in the morning, they're all dead and you know, trying to talk about how I feel. Yeah, I hadn't even talked about how I feel yet, and so I locked myself up almost literally in our upper room, our upper study, here at home. Because one morning, you know, I got out of hospital and I just woke up about four in the morning bawling my eyes out again and I thought right, that's it. And so I started to frame it as grief. So you know, grief has five stages, Yep, and I had to go through them. There was no way around that.
Speaker 2:So that's what I did and continued to do that with probably my three or four main things a couple of them I mentioned before until I described the sting went out of them, and now I kind of describe it like I've got little windows in the back of my head or somewhere. It's not like I've completely forgotten. Like we've done today, I can open up and we can explore fatality or when this fellow tried to kill me, and blah, blah, blah. But I'll put the windows back on. I'll go and have dinner later or whatever, and watch some TV and go to bed and have a nice sleep. Now sometimes, maybe after this, I'm sort of expecting there might be a few troubles, because this is a real focus on me and going through the whole thing and you know. But look, you know I'm willing to do it because I know that it's not only.
Speaker 1:You have people you can lean on. If this conversation is a trigger, Well I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's my wife who's pretty good actually considering. But there are. You know, if I need to go to counselling, guess what? I know a few counsellors. And for me you know, part of my recovery again has been to get sober from alcohol. So I've been sober now for seven and a half years.
Speaker 1:So it's not an option to drink.
Speaker 2:Not an option to drink, not an option to drink. I know that just doesn't do me any good, and so yeah, it's been. How did?
Speaker 1:you get to the counselling side of things then. So you know, because you said 2014, that's what nine, ten years ago. In that meantime, you know, know, were you working what, what? What happened there and how did you get to?
Speaker 2:this. I did work and it's hard to remember sort of the timelines. But for a while here I just, yeah, people sort of said look, and my wife said just do any, do some meaning or whatever you want to do. You know yep and um, excuse me. So for a while there I worked in traffic management, if you know what that is. You know Yep, stop go bat and just.
Speaker 1:I've worked in traffic management as well.
Speaker 2:So, and after a while I found that my intelligence and all that was too high, you know. So they just wanted something. They didn't want you to think too much about it. No, so I'd be. You know, I was quite experienced in the end, so I could go up and set up sites and all that sort of stuff. But as far as interacting with clients, you know, they'd just go, because we're dealing in construction most of the time, mate, I just want you to stand there.
Speaker 2:And I'd go hang on a minute. You can't tell me how to do my job, so I was getting into. You know the old mark was coming back a bit. You know, I could think.
Speaker 1:Which is the identity side of things.
Speaker 2:It's the identity, yeah. So I thought, well, wouldn't it be good for them to have an ex-copper doing this sort of job? But most of them didn't see it that way, no. So anyway, that was there. But I also upgraded a certificate in training and assessment I have, so I've got the current training and assessment, which is pretty handy. It's pretty long-winded, actually, because it's almost diploma level now the work that's required, but anyway.
Speaker 2:So I've got that, and so I taught mainly first aid, as well sort of in amongst the traffic management or I think towards the end I was doing that almost full time because it was just they were sending me everywhere, all over Melbourne, victoria, you know, because I thought, oh, he's pretty good. But this is another thing that happened with that. This is, you know, for the audience at home, this is coppers. I don't know. I like to think, well, I'll put it in the best light, like we're very intelligent human beings and we can really work with a, you know, with a fluid environment under stress.
Speaker 2:So my boss actually said at this company, which was Australia-wide, they said, well, you've had a lot of experience. You know, we don't normally get trainers that have actually done so much first aid. Anyway, I had this wonderful idea that, you know, training should be as hands-on as you can. So I'd run role plays and I'd be liking the role play and I'd play someone drunk coming down the road, you know, and abusing the people doing the first aid, like the students. Anyway, some of the young ones, some of the young ones, they couldn't. Well, yeah, they couldn't see the difference between when I was at training. It's unbelievable to me.
Speaker 2:I. They couldn't see the difference between when I was a trainee.
Speaker 1:It's unbelievable to me. I'm with you. I'm right there with you.
Speaker 2:But I just tell this is interesting. You know, from what you know, I think we have to. Well, I'll just finish this off. So, anyway, my boss rang me. I'm getting complaints from you know these young people? And I said, well, what do you want me to do? And I told her what I was doing these young people. And I said, well, what do you want me to do? And I told her what I was doing and she went oh, look, just wrap them up in cotton wool. So I said, well, on Monday you can wrap my resignation up in cotton wool.
Speaker 1:So I was a bit I didn't need to do that, but I reacted you know, yeah, no, I, and every time you talk and I'm going to make the assumption that anyone listening to this that has been in a first responder role whether it's predominantly police, but fireys, ambos, whatever are going to be sitting there nodding their head, going shit. Yeah, that's happened to me as well, because I see exactly the same thing where I've done exactly the same thing.
Speaker 2:Well, otherwise we're too incompetent. But also Sorry, not incompetent, we're too competent, is what I meant to say. But, also, we somehow and I'm sort of even looking at this now, I won't say this in the right words lose the ability to know that you've got to go through the chain of command, like I just said. Well, I'm going to make these role plays up, right which weren't in the original script for the training program, but I thought what a great idea. I'll just do it.
Speaker 1:What I should have done was talk to my boss first. But you spend that formative period of your working life in a role where you have the ability to make decisions that have far more consequence than the decisions you're making now, and it doesn't click with you that something that minor needs to be run through the thing because it never did in your formative working life.
Speaker 2:Having said that, I don't want to really go much into how it changed and all that, but in the last few years and that was another stress, I think- you know, how things happen and you don't realise it's putting stress on stress.
Speaker 2:Well, I remember this one and this is what was happening. And so I'm out on the van you know seeing Connie by that stage you know 12, 13 years experience or whatever and I'm called. But you know, we just it was a. We knew who the crook was, it was just a willful damage or something. And so I'm going yeah, we'll go around and get him do this. And we get a call back and there's a sergeant appeared from somewhere I didn't really see him at my station people and he says oh no, I've reviewed what's happening with you there. This is what we're going to do. You know, like, he's telling me how to do my job that I've been doing for. So this start. Obviously this was part of the what was happening. This control thing was going on, so they could get to the point where you know we don't want anybody thinking for themselves. However, what's the conundrum of that is that, say, you're stuck in a situation where you can't go back to the station and talk about what you're going to do, which happens quite frequently.
Speaker 1:I just I don't want to say what's going on now.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I'm not there. That's all I can. I just I don't want to say what's going on now. I'm glad I'm not there. That's all I can say.
Speaker 1:No, I agree, I agree 100%. But I also think that for people of our experience and anyone listening, that's in that like 70s, 80s, 90s vintage of policing, because it's not that way now and private enterprise is that way we're handicapped.
Speaker 1:We've got one hand tied behind our back because the way we the way we, the way our work life was fomented, is so different to what happens in in the real world. The police are there now, but we've been trained that way that we don't see it, if that makes sense. So we don't see the need for the way that the corporate world does it now in regards to that Everything needs to go.
Speaker 2:We probably, in essence, because of who we are and where we've been, we don't fit into the corporate world. No Like they'll do anything to go up the ladder and get more money. That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1:This is very true. Okay, I want to touch on how you got into with this group and talk more about the group and who they are, and we'll put all the details in the information about the podcast, if there's contact details and that sort of stuff, if the group's open to that. But how did you get involved with that and how did you get into the counselling part, Right? Well, the group that meet, they're two separate things. And how did you get into the counselling part?
Speaker 2:Right, well, the group that meet. They're two separate things, you know, although it looks like there's going to be some crossover happening as we go along. We're just starting to talk about that, but that's in the early stages. So I was only a few months ago. I don't know how did I get, perhaps I saw, I think I saw something on a group on Facebook, yep, and anyway, you'll know what this means. The group's called TJF.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think anyone listening will know what that is yeah, but they've called very clever.
Speaker 2:It's actually the journey forward. It's not what you think but it is.
Speaker 1:That's a very good reframe.
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, yeah, that's what they've done, because apparently these two guys that started the management of the Victoria Police came after them and of course have nothing, no control or nothing to do with them, of course, yep, but you know that's what they do Anyway. So that's once a fortnight. In fact, we're meeting this Friday at 10 am. We're all going to the Mordialli Bowls Club and we're going to have a bit of a bowl and a bit of a laugh and a giggle and a talk and that sort of thing. So we don't always do activities like that. Sometimes we're just sitting around a table and having a talk, yep, and we realise and that's what I'm just talking some people at my counseling work, or the, the, uh, the woman there, that's, uh, the supervisor or the, you know the ceo basically and she said, look, she's heard a few stories.
Speaker 2:and she said, look, I think you need someone, needs some, you know, group moderator training, because some it can get a bit out of control. Yeah, with all we're all triggering each other and stuff, yeah, and you don't even realise it until it happens, yep, and then somebody's, you know, pretty upset and not well, and that sort of thing. So we don't want that to happen. We want us, you know, to all be supported. So anyway, that's what happens once a fortnight.
Speaker 1:And if anyone's listening to this, do they take people to come and join, or is it?
Speaker 2:you know, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're hoping that we'll grow it into, you know, more groups, basically all over the country.
Speaker 1:Is there a Facebook page or something or other that they use? Sorry, Is there a Facebook page? Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:There might be a Facebook page. There's definitely a website. So if you put in TJF, it should come up.
Speaker 1:We'll grab the website details and I'll put it in the comment part of this. So if people are interested, we might be able to start nationalising it. Is that the right word? Making it into a?
Speaker 2:nationwide group.
Speaker 1:So how did you get into the counselling then? So the counselling was obviously before you became involved with this group yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, look, you know, I was really, you know. My wife said well, you know, oh, that's right, I was um, I was put on work cover after all that time, would you believe, I resubmitted that From the police. Yeah, yeah, and it was accepted. So I'm on a nice payment every week, which helps, but yeah, so anyway. But my wife said look you better, you know, do whatever you want to do. You know whatever you think you should, you know should do. And look, I'm a man, that's still, you know. I know that you could be at 60T. You could say, well, I'll just do nothing and go and play golf, but I'm not like that.
Speaker 2:So you know, I really do want to help others and so I thought, well, what a great way to do it, you know. So I just investigated and well, I'd already, you know, spoken to plenty of counsellors and I thought I reckon I could do a pretty good deal of this, and particularly for, I mean, I'll help anybody but a particular focus on, you know, ex-police and paramedics and others that are suffering. So you know, there's nothing like talking to someone that's from your environment. You often I've had discussions before and I think that happened to me as well You'd have counsellors or psychologists or whatever, and they'd spend an awful lot of time picking your brains because they just wanted to know what it was like to be a copper.
Speaker 2:They didn't really have much to offer you. I mean, all that stuff I've been through and discussed before, that's all on offer to recover. And then, of course, the strength of the recovery is in, um, working towards you know what you can go on to. Yep, you know, because you can't of recovery, you can, and you know where I was, so you can recover to an extent where you can go on with life and function and have a, you know, a good life that's what I want.
Speaker 2:That's what I want for anyone, you know.
Speaker 1:This is true In regards to. So, with the counselling, I just wanted to make a point. We were talking about how you spoke to a lot of psychologists who were just out of university and they didn't understand that sort of stuff. One of the things that I was, one of the advice that I was given is to find someone who one was older and two who had a very good understanding of first responders, because that way they could then frame all the stuff that they need to talk about in language that you understand and they would understand it as well. Now, in regards to your coun counseling service that you work for, do you want to give that a plug here?
Speaker 2:so if people need to, yeah, are looking for someone to think they, they can contact me or whatever you want um, yeah, so, um, yep, it's called redefine life. Yep, redefine life, yep, redefine life. Uh, there should be a. There is a website. Um, well, again, we'll put those details redefine lifecomau. I think that's basically it. So redefine life, that's the way.
Speaker 1:I'm just reading from a card here. You know that's okay, so we'll put those details in there as well, and if anyone feels that they would benefit from talking to, an organisation marketplace, then yeah, I'm happy to give my phone number across.
Speaker 2:if that's, you know something they can use Mate.
Speaker 1:that's entirely up to you. It's your platform. Well, it just makes it easier. I think yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm not a big IT man, I know how to use it, but to me it just gets in easier. Yeah, and I'm not a big it man, I know how to use it, but to me it just gives me what gets in the way of a good time. So, zero, four, zero, zero, two. One, two, two, eight, four, and certainly if, um, I can't help, then someone else will be able to, um, put you in touch with someone, but seriously I don't. Uh, well, there's not a lot. There are others but you know there's probably not a lot that are really good, uh, that are ex coppers that have got a real focus on, you know, that profession I guess.
Speaker 1:Yep, not a problem again. We'll put those details in the comments there. So if your phone goes off, don't blame me um, so it's uh, you know it's great.
Speaker 2:it's a lot of fun actually, because even though there's some heavy weather when people are right in the thick of it, I just sort of think you know I'm doing, you know this is what I needed when I was going through it. You know an ex-copper that knew his stuff, that had some counselling, you know training and all the rest of it to really and often it's just being able to bear with people, hold space as they say yep, because when you're going through some heavy um, some people just go I can't, I can't do this and that's okay, because we're all different, you know I don't want to go and lay bricks.
Speaker 2:A little brick layer probably doesn't want to come and do what I'm doing, so that's all right, I'm no good.
Speaker 1:My brother and father were both uh, my brother and father were both tradies, and the only thing I hit with a hammer is my thumb. Now, one of the things that we spoke about earlier was talking about if someone came to you and said I want to be a police officer, what do you wish you knew then when you joined the police, that you know now.
Speaker 2:Oh, probably a little bit more about what it was really all about.
Speaker 1:Do you think that would have stopped you from joining?
Speaker 2:Oh, probably not, but I think that you know I was just. You know I was playing footy with these blokes. I got on well with most of them, so similar sort of blokes so they were talking about. They weren't talking about fatalities, obviously, or anything, although they would have been there. They were just talking about camaraderie mostly. So I've heard other people say the same thing and that's my experience, that when I went to work with the coppers it was just like the footy club, just an extension of the footy club, really, yep, and so that was a good feeling.
Speaker 1:So what do you think the biggest myth is about policing the myth?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think there are really any myths. I mean, as a young fellow, my memory was, you know, I was after action. I wasn't going to listen to anybody that said that there was a nasty side to it. Just having a go, I'm 19, you know Fair enough.
Speaker 1:Now I asked you the question of what advice would you give someone who was thinking of joining the police. Your response was don't, let's say someone really was wanting to do it. What type of person do you think needs to be a police officer?
Speaker 2:what type of person do you think what I think and what the police force think now might be two different things.
Speaker 1:This isn't a podcast for the police force thing. Now might be two different things. Yeah, but this isn't a podcast for the police force, no well, look, I don't really know anymore.
Speaker 2:Well, from my experience you know, and this is what it's going to go real it's going to look like I'm a dinosaur, but I think they had it right when they had a police woman division. So we don't want police women out in the general duties and all that you know on the front line, so young strong men, or just you know, even older ones, but people going in young strong men, that because that's what a lot of the time it is I mean there is smarts involved, but a lot of the time. That's why they used to hire us like that Yep, Because the older fellows are getting older and less fit and that's why they concentrate so much on the fitness in the academy. You know we've got to get out there and grab the crooks and everyone and keep the place safe.
Speaker 2:Fair enough, it's hardly going to be safe with a whole heap of big fat men going around. Can't even drop them down for drop cholesterol.
Speaker 1:This is very true. Um, all right, look, I guess the last question that I always ask is um and it's not really a question um, it's more like the last word. I'll leave the last word to you to say whatever it is you want in regards to policing your journey, anything like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that, under the current regime anyway, that you're going to have unless you're one that for some reason isn't going to be affected, but you will, and so how are you going to deal with that? You know, I don't know whether you're talking about entering or whatever, but just generally, um, it's going to affect your mental health that all the shift work and everything is going to be really difficult for your family.
Speaker 2:It's okay for a single person. Once you get a family and everything, um, you know, is that something you want for your family? Uh, it's okay to say that you want to go out and you know it's a noble profession. You know there's no doubt about that. I mean, the people like myself and you and all those that have basically sacrificed themselves for the cause is very noble. But you know, until let's put it this way, until the police force itself has a way of supporting us in that, then I'd say it's untenable. To be quite honest, you know it's almost like some of my thoughts are police should be like military and all that. We should have tours. I know they get leave and all that, but you know it is so exhausting, particularly some of these heavier jobs that um do you think mandatory leave is something that should be put in place, that say, after eight months, that's it.
Speaker 1:You're taking four weeks off.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely yeah, yeah but with that um, you know, obviously people are going to have, you know, their holidays and family or whatever. You know, perhaps they do well, something that doesn't even affect that. Outside of that, you go for a week, just mandatory a week at a retreat somewhere. You know, yep, yeah, and let's really with people like me, let's really talk about what's going on. You know, yep, and you know, really, let's bust it down to.
Speaker 2:You know what's going on, because you know, it's what I'm most concerned about and this is what makes me a good counsel, I think is that I'm most concerned about the individual. I really couldn't give a fuck about the police force or any other institution. You know, it's the person. I mean, look at me, I'm going on 18 years. I haven't seen my kids. Now, that's a pretty severe outcome from the job. I'd say it was a lot of the job, yep, what they experienced and what their dad ended up being. So, yeah, until they've got a proper plan in place about what they're doing, about those things, yeah, stay away.
Speaker 2:And you know, all I want to do is just see people recover. At these meetings we have every fortnight, we just get more and more come because people are becoming more aware, because they're put on sick leave, things like that, and they're sitting at home. What do they do? You know there's again no recovery plan. So they come to us and we're working on it. You know it's a work in progress because a lot of us have just sort of only got some recovery and sort of saying, right, lot of us have just sort of only got some recovery and sort of saying, right, this is what we did. You know, what can we do? So, in other words, it's not like plug in at A and come out at Z. Certainly not at the moment anyway.
Speaker 1:No, I guess there's sort of something else now that's just popped into my mind. We were talking about, you know, don't join the police. If someone is still hell hell bent on joining the police, what advice would you give them to keep their their? I was going to say sanity, but that's not the right word to keep their mental health keep their mental health, uh, healthy. What would you say to them that they should be doing? Taking a week off now and then, but you know, would you?
Speaker 2:sort of thing. You know, I think that's, see. But you know, would you that sort of thing? Yeah, I think that, see, people would say, you know, exercise, healthy exercise, all that. Don't drink. Yep, I'm mostly going to go, yeah, right, well, I drink, but really that's, you know, to me. You know they're the lightweight things, they're good things to do, yep, but there's something more that happens, you know.
Speaker 1:What about having someone to talk to? Are you putting that in place at a very early stage?
Speaker 2:of your career. Well, I believe in some of the things I was involved in, probably I wouldn't be the only one. It wasn't a mental thing, particularly I had a broken spirit. Yep, you know, I'm dragging around, you know, involved in death and mayhem every week and thinking I can't cope with this. But I wouldn't have been able to put that together because my superiors, or whatever the job, just said well, drink more piss, and then, if you're not too good, drink more piss alright, look what I'll do don't do that.
Speaker 1:Mark. I'll leave it there. Thank you very much. I really appreciate you giving me the time to have this conversation and for going through some of those things that you've spoken about. I appreciate the impact that it could very well have on you.
Speaker 1:To everyone else who has been listening, mark's details the details of the support group that he belongs to, uh will be in the um link provided and, uh, thank you for listening from behind the thin blue line. If you're a current or past police officer and you'd like to tell your story, just as mark has uh, or talk about what you do, then, then please email me at whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. Thank you very much and we will catch you all next time. Thank you for joining me on Behind the Thin Blue Line, where I have conversations with current and former police officers and they get to tell their stories. I hope you've enjoyed that episode.
Speaker 1:In the next episode, we'll again explore the human side of policing through more conversations with police officers from around the world. Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Lastly, if you're a current or former police officer, I would love to chat to you about your experiences or, if you're feeling dangerous, tell your stories on my podcast. Please get in contact by my email, which is whisperintheshadowspodcast at gmailcom. I look forward to you joining me next week.
